Official Languages Committee on March 2nd, 2022

[Stéphane Handfield]

I will divide your question into two.

With the Immigration and Refugee Board, there must be clear directives from the minister to the chairperson of the board, then to the members of the various divisions of the board, in order to ensure respect both for French and the choice of language of proceedings.

Then, within the department, there must be clear measures to ensure that immigration officers respect the language chosen by claimants, and are held accountable for doing so.

As I mentioned earlier, the only recourse available to a client is to file a complaint with the Commissioner of Official Languages, and we know what can happen then.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, sir, that was really interesting.

The floor now goes to Niki Ashton from Manitoba, for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My thanks to all the witnesses who are here with us today. I have to tell them that I find their testimony overwhelming. We are all aware of the topic and some of the issues, but what they have shared with us is very concerning. On the one hand, Canada says it wants to welcome French-speaking immigrants, but on the other hand, it does not provide them with the services they need to come and stay here. We must act on what the witnesses are proposing today. My thanks to them for their messages.

My first questions are for Ms. Ngountchoup.

Ms. Ngountchoup, the demographic weight of francophones in Acadia and New Brunswick is declining, as it is in many places in Canada. Moncton has a francophone university...

[Honorine Ngountchoup]

Excuse me, I am hearing the English interpretation, I don't know why.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

One moment, Ms. Ngountchoup. We will check that.

Is that working?

[Stéphane Handfield]

It's the same for me, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

When I am speaking, do you just hear me in French?

If I speak in English, do you hear it in French?

[Stéphane Handfield]

No, there's no interpretation in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Okay.

I am told that the problem is solved.

You can continue, Ms. Ashton

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Moncton has a francophone university. As we know, Canada has systematically refused to accept francophone immigrants from Africa. At the same time, Canada has missed its target of welcoming 4.4% of francophone immigrants. That target was set in 2003, almost 20 years ago.

Do you think that there is an inconsistency between the target set and the refusal to accept French-speaking students?

[Honorine Ngountchoup]

I feel that there is a great deal of inconsistency, especially considering that there are currently many francophones in Canada who are not permanent residents.

The way language tests are evaluated... You cannot apply for permanent residency if you have not passed the language tests. They are evaluated in France.

Personally, I felt that I had a higher level of French than the person who did my evaluation. But I failed the test, and I am not the only one. I know others who did not pass the language test, even though they have lived, grown up, studied and worked in French for many years. A lot of people can express themselves in French on a daily basis, and can champion French and the Francophonie, but they cannot apply for permanent residency. That creates a rift.

Many francophones live in remote areas, and it is difficult for them to access services in French. In winter, no one wants to risk their life by travelling to take a French test. I travelled during the winter and risked my life three times. I had a major traumatic experience after finishing the language test. I told myself that I was not alone in the situation. Many who speak French are already here in Canada, but they are not given permanent resident status. Imagine what it is like for those who are abroad.

Earlier, a committee member mentioned that, when you decide to come to Canada, you have to show that you intend to return to your country afterwards. That is correct. You have to show that you are not going to stay in Canada, yet Canada claims that it wants to welcome francophones.

To what extent are they going to remodel the service to be more consistent with the target, the objective? I have no idea.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you for sharing your difficult personal experience with us.

You talked about having to pay to take exams and about the obstacles that international students face. But we need immigration to restore the demographic weight of francophone communities.

In your opinion, if the government removed those obstacles, would we get closer to those targets?

[Honorine Ngountchoup]

Yes, for sure.

I'm going to speak as a former student, because I can't speak professionally, on behalf of my colliege. The language barrier is a major one. Personally, I am still dealing with the aftermath of the trauma I experenced.

If we remove the language barrier, knowing that the person is French-speaking, it would be a great relief, not to mention that taking the French test is very expensive. Anyone failing the test has to pay to take it again. That is a major challenge.

Providing some relief in that area would make a very big difference for those who are already here and for those who want to come to Canada.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Ms. Ngountchoup, thank you for the work you are doing, even though you do not represent the organization you work for. Your work is obviously part of the solution.

My next question is for Mr. Jolin.

Mr. Jolin, a witness from the francophone community in Sarnia testified about the lack of French-language services for newcomers. Since they have to choose between English and French, most allophones choose English.

Should more be done in terms of exposing newcomers to French? Should courses be offered to learn both official languages?

[Carol Jolin]

Courses should definitely be offered in both official languages. It would allow people who want to learn French to do so. The courses must be offered to them.

We still have work to do in that regard. We have two official languages in this country and we need to make sure that people can study in the language of their choice. If they want to learn the other official language, they have to be able to do so. We have actually been asking for that for quite some time.

It makes perfect sense to move in that direction.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much, Mr. Jolin.

In the next round of questions, I will give the floor to one member from each party. Since time is limited, the division will be as follows: four minutes, four minutes, two minutes and two minutes. That will take us to the time when we have to vote.

Mr. Gourde, you now have the floor for four minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will be brief.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here and for giving us their testimony.

I have been a member of Parliament for 16 years. For 16 years, my office has been helping people deal with Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship Canada. The stories I hear do not reassure me, because, to me, they prove how complicated the process is. My constituency is not the only one with problems; there are problems all over Canada. It saddens me greatly because we are dealing with human beings and we see broken lives among the people dealing with the department. It is really very sad.

My question is for Mr. Handfield.

Mr. Handfield, some people should really file a complaint, and I feel that they have few, if any, places where they can go. I find that disappointing. If you had one piece of advice to give us in this regard, what process could we put in place to make it possible for people who feel aggrieved to file a complaint?

[Stéphane Handfield]

Your question is very pertinent, Mr. Gourde. I actually ask myself the same question.

As I mentioned earlier, what could be done to ensure that these people have some recourse, apart from going to the Federal Court in certain cases, when the decision or the position comes from the panel? As I said, and I will say it again, the issue is accountability. There are no consequences for an officer of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada who renders a decision in a language other than the one the client chose. Other than filing a complaint with the Commissioner of Official Languages, there is no strong lever to reverse the trend.

Unfortunately, I do not have a miracle solution for you this afternoon. If I did, of course, I would already have stated it and shared it with a number of parliamentarians. I don't know if the other speakers have any concrete solutions to offer, but unfortunately, I have been asking myself the same question as you for a very long time.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I will give the other speakers a chance to answer that question. But first, I would like to ask Ms. Ngountchoup a question.

Ms. Ngountchoup, you talked about the French exam. I recognize that your French is impeccable. This is not the first time I have heard that the French exam seems to be very difficult. As a francophone from Quebec, I am not even sure I would pass it.

Is the difficulty level of the French exam really out of line? Are we using the exam too often to turn people away?

[Honorine Ngountchoup]

Personally, I found some of the questions to be very difficult. But the problem was in the marking. I know I did well on some of the questions and I don't understand why I failed them. Yes, it is very difficult for someone whose language level is not advanced enough. I can tell you that, when I read them, I realized that they were aimed at people with a lot of brainpower. But people can live and work in Canada with a reasonable level of French,

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Do you have any suggestions as to what people who feel they have been wronged by the department could do?

[Honorine Ngountchoup]

First of all, in order to avoid repeated emails, you could create a website to collect complaints from people who have had negative experiences. This would then allow you to provide recourse solutions right there. That would be a good start.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 20 seconds left, Mr. Gourde.

Ms. Kayabaga is next, also for four minutes.

The floor is yours, Ms. Kayabaga.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will start by thanking our witnesses today.

Ms. Ngountchoup, I want to let you know that it's okay if your son joins us for the discussion. He must be very interested.

My question is for Mr. Jolin and Ms. Ngountchoup.

Mr. Jolin, it is a pleasure to see you again at the committee.

Mr. Jolin and Ms. Ngountchoup, we already know that 60% of the world's francophones are in Africa. Although the government actually has ambitious plans for francophone immigration, what suggestions could you give them to increase the number of francophone immigrants, particularly from Africa? As someone who lives in a completely English-speaking city, I would love to see more francophones join me as Franco-Ontarians.

Can you give me two suggestions in your answer?