Official Languages Committee on March 2nd, 2022

[Carol Jolin]

That's right, and the vast majority of francophone immigrants come from Africa.

At the moment, the federal government hardly has any presence in Africa, in terms of visa offices. For example, I know that one office in Senegal serves a dozen or so countries. It's very difficult for people to travel across several countries to get to a visa office. So we need a greater presence. We say we want francophone immigration to Canada, so we need to give ourselves the means to do so, and we can start by correcting that situation.

In sub-Saharan Africa, it is not uncommon for an applicant to have to travel through six countries to submit an application. This is absolutely ridiculous; it's a joke. It goes against what we are trying to do. We say that we want francophone immigration and that we are doing everything we can to achieve our goals. Yet the people who want to come are not able to join us. So this is an extremely important issue that we have to work on.

I mentioned Ontario selecting immigrants, and reaching its target of 5%. We are asking that Ontario be allowed to select more immigrants. The province selected 8,350 immigrants in 2021 and they want to select 13,000. Since Ontario is meeting and even surpassing the 5% target, that is the new target we have set ourselves.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much for your comment.

We also want these French-speaking immigrants to be able to go somewhere other than Quebec. For example, in London, we would like to continue to grow our francophone community.

Ms. Ngountchoup, could you take a few seconds to answer my question?

[Honorine Ngountchoup]

Yes, I have two suggestions.

The first would be to remove the note saying that you have to show that you want to return to your country after completing your studies. It's difficult for someone to demonstrate that they intend to return to their country, when they have all the skills and potential needed to be in the Canadian market. That would be a good step forward.

The second solution would be to target francophone institutions. We know that, in schools, from post‑secondary or university level onwards, everyone who is there has a minimum level of knowledge in French. This could be seen as a confirmation that they have the basic level required here. Then, we should review the way in which knowledge of the French language is assessed. Is the level of assessment important? If you have attained a certain level of education in French, you necessarily have a certain level. So is a French test really needed to immigrate?

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you for your comment. I agree with you.

There is a labour shortage, so we must also use these francophone immigrants for—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Beaulieu, you have two minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

There seems to be a systemic problem in the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship seems to have a systemic problem. We met with officials in the last meeting, and they were in some denial about the problem. They said that they didn't know what we were talking about. If they don't recognize the problem in the first place, it's very hard to believe that it will improve.

The Bloc Québécois is obviously asking that all possible powers in immigration be repatriated to Quebec. I wanted to know what the witnesses think about it. Mr. Jolin, you seem to be saying that Ontario should have more immigration powers as well. So, what do you think?

For Quebec, perhaps Mr. Handfield can answer, but shouldn't New Brunswick and Ontario also have more powers in immigration?

[Stéphane Handfield]

Mr. Beaulieu, in the case of Quebec, I think it would be ideal because the delays in certain cases are exponential. This is because some applications must be processed by both MIFI, the Ministère de l'Immigration, de la Francisation et de l'Intégration, and Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada.

Of course, it would be ideal if all files were processed from start to finish by a single department, namely the Quebec ministry of immigration. There would be consistency in decision‑making and, in addition, processing times would be greatly reduced. That would be a feasible solution. Furthermore, there would be no problem with respecting the language of the proceedings because, obviously, everything would be done in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Handfield.

We are going to have one final two‑minute round of questions.

You have two minutes, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

I have a question for you, Mr. Jolin. You confirmed that the 4.4% target was not met. A few days ago, we asked the people from the immigration department if they were going to set a catch‑up target. We were told that the current target was still 4.4%.

If we want to protect the demographic weight of francophone communities in Ontario and elsewhere in Canada, should the government set a catch‑up target?

[Carol Jolin]

The Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario is in the process of completing a rigorous study on the issue of targets. The study is based on data from Statistics Canada, and the analysis model has been validated by the organization. We want to wait for the study to be published before officially deciding on a target, but it is clear that more needs to be done and it needs to be done better.

With a target of 4.4%, there is a lot of catching up to do. Our target in Ontario is 5%, and we have been a long way from meeting it for 10 years. Our demographic weight is greatly affected. Not only do we want to meet our 5% target, but we also need to exceed it. The federal target definitely needs to be increased.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Quickly, do you think the federal government should set up a francophone minority immigration program for the provinces, particularly for my province, Manitoba, Ontario and the others?

[Carol Jolin]

One of the important points in the bill tabled yesterday is the need to establish a francophone immigration policy. It talks about targets and accountability, but it doesn't talk about numbers.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much. That will be all.

Before closing, I would like to thank our witnesses. Ms. Ngountchoup and Ms. Handfield, this is the first time we have had you before the committee. Thank you for sharing your experience with us so clearly.

To our regulars, Mr. Jolin, Mr. Hominuk and Mr. Michaud, thank you once again. You have given good testimonies that are very enlightening.

I am suspending the meeting, and we will resume after the vote.

The witnesses for the second part of the meeting, those who are waiting, please stay there. We'll be back in 15 or 20 minutes, after the vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We're back in session. Forgive us, but this is our great democracy. Sometimes we have to vote in Parliament.

We have with us—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, excuse me for interrupting you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Yes, Mr. Godin?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I would like to have unanimous consent to table a motion on the operating budget for the study we are starting today. I think you have all received a document to that effect. I suggest that we approve this proposal.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Is there unanimous consent? I see that there is.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'll pick up where I left off.

For the next hour, or what's left of it, we'll hear from the following witnesses. By videoconference, we have Moïse Zahoui, immigration services coordinator, from the Centre de santé communautaire du Grand Sudbury, as well as Karl Blackburn and Denis Hamel, from the Quebec Council of Employers, whom we were fortunate enough to have before us not too long ago.

Mr. Zahoui, we'll begin with you. You have five minutes for your opening remarks. The floor is yours.

[Moïse Zahoui, Immigration Services Coordinator, Centre de santé communautaire du Grand Sudbury]

Good afternoon.

I am Moïse Zahoui, immigration services coordinator with the Centre de santé communautaire du Grand Sudbury. Thank you for this opportunity to talk to you about our local reality.

The Centre de santé communautaire du Grand Sudbury is also the lead agent for the Welcoming Francophone Communities initiative in Sudbury, in addition to being a service provider for newcomers.

Let's talk about targets first.

Before the pandemic, the City of Greater Sudbury, which, since May 2020, is one of 14 welcoming francophone communities, was receiving more and more francophone immigrants. Since the population is very transient, we do not have exact figures. However, when the pandemic was declared, the Centre de santé communautaire du Grand Sudbury had more than 170 individuals or families identified as newcomers. That is a record number, and that's not counting all the international students, workers on temporary visas and refugee protection claimants.

Between 2018 and 2020, two studies were conducted on the status of the situation in Sudbury. What we found was that at the time, very few services for newcomers were available in French. The 177 francophone newcomers who participated in these studies were young, under 46 years of age. Fifty‑seven percent were permanent residents, and 36% were international students from sub‑Saharan Africa, the Maghreb and the Caribbean. Eighty‑three per cent came to Sudbury for their education, 10% for family reunification, and 7% for work.

According to our data, Sudbury was the top destination for international students, but it was a second migration destination for immigrants with permanent resident status from, mostly from Ontario and Quebec. Thirty‑one percent of respondents came directly to Sudbury, 25% from Montreal, 14% from Toronto and 11% from Ottawa.

In general, the income of these newcomers was very low. Almost three‑quarters of respondents had incomes below $30,000 per year, and 75% of respondents were in school and combined it with part‑time or full‑time work. They had little or no English language skills. Often unaware of the services available, these newcomers often faced isolation, stress and discrimination.

How do these findings help us understand the failure to meet our targets? We don't have to look very far. Before the pandemic, we weren't able to meet our targets because newcomers to Greater Sudbury were not able to settle, find a job and live in French. As a result, they left for Ottawa, Toronto or Montreal.

The welcoming francophone communities and direct services projects have allowed us to hire a team of four people who focus specifically on the settlement needs and socio‑economic integration challenges of the newcomers mentioned above.

These projects have also enabled us to strengthen the local presence of certain partners, such as the Société économique de l'Ontario and the Conseil de la coopération de l'Ontario. The only problem is that all these resources came at the height of the pandemic. During the pandemic, health restrictions and the closure of Canada's borders made it very difficult for newly established settlement services and welcoming community projects to work. So we turned to existing clients: permanent residents who had arrived in the last five years, international students, and temporary workers with closed or open visas.

How can the government work to maintain or increase the demographic weight of francophone minority communities? Since promoting francophone immigration is essential, we are asking the Government of Canada to take the following measures.

It should renew the projects launched at the beginning of the pandemic, so that they can prove their worth and demonstrate the impact of investments on francophone minority communities.

It should make it mandatory for francophone clients to be referred to francophone settlement services while respecting their choices.

It should anchor the 4.4% francophone target in all immigration programs.

It should adapt the Canadian government's international recruitment campaigns to the realities of francophone minority communities, particularly with regard to the jobs available and the language situation.

It should open offices and pre‑departure and visa services in countries in sub‑Saharan Africa, countries that represent a larger pool of francophone immigration.

It should establish strategies to shorten the processing time for applications for permanent residence, work permits and citizenship, which would provide greater stability for applicants.

It should restore immigration services in the regions, including the IRCC office in Sudbury.

There's one thing I didn't write down. The government should ensure that francophone service providers in Ontario have agents in the department who are francophone first, so that they can help francophone immigrants.

Thank you. I will be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's perfect, and you did it in less than five minutes, Mr. Zahoui.

I'll now give the floor to Mr. Blackburn or Mr. Hamel for five minutes.

Go ahead, gentlemen.

[Karl Blackburn, President and Chief Executive Officer, Quebec Council of Employers]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Committee members, my name is Karl Blackburn, and I am the president and CEO of the Quebec Council of Employers. With me today is Denis Hamel, vice president of Workforce Development Policies.

Our organization, created in 1969, is a confederation of nearly 100 sectoral associations and several corporate members, representing the interests of over 70,000 employers, of all sizes and in all regions of Quebec, from the private and parapublic sectors.

This is the second time in recent months that I have had the pleasure of addressing this committee on the role that the Government of Canada should play in promoting French, but this time through immigration.

The immigration picture in general, and francophone economic immigration in particular, is a major concern for employers. As you know, our aging demographics will not allow us to fill all the vacancies over the next 10 years. Even if we succeed in increasing the labour market participation of unemployed people, experienced workers, and people from under‑represented groups, the fact remains that about one‑quarter of job vacancies, now and in the future, can only be filled through immigration.

In this regard, it is clear that the current situation is unsustainable. The number of vacant positions is at an all‑time high. There are currently more jobs to fill than people receiving employment insurance benefits in Quebec. Immigration programs are slowing down, and employers and prospective immigrants are becoming increasingly frustrated by the unprecedented delays.

In April 1991, the governments of Canada and Quebec agreed to share jurisdiction over immigration in order to provide Quebec with new ways of preserving its demographic weight within Canada, while promoting the consolidation and enrichment of Canada's cultural and social heritage, given its federal and bilingual character. It is sad to note that, more than 30 years after the Canada-Quebec Accord relating to Immigration and Temporary Admission of Aliens came into force, immigration has become a political issue that has distanced governments from their respective obligations.

This dual administration creates political friction. Departments are passing the buck in terms of who is responsible for the lengthy processing times. The finger is regularly pointed at Quebec, which is responsible for determining the number of permanent immigrants entering its territory, as the cause of the backlog of files on the desks of federal public servants. At the same time, the federal government recently admitted to voluntarily slowing down the processing of Quebec skilled worker applications, citing a large inventory of applications, while Quebec had also reduced its admission targets.

This inconsistency is strikingly—and I would say shockingly—evident in the case of foreign students. On the one hand, immigration officers routinely refuse study permit applications from francophone students, citing the Immigration Regulations, which stipulate that applicants must leave Canada at the end of their studies. At the same time, Quebec, through its Programme de l'expérience québécoise, the PEQ, encourages international students to apply for permanent status after graduation. How to make sense of it all?

What is especially troubling is that immigration officers seem to be overzealous when reviewing the applications of francophone students. Study permit applications are rejected at a rate of 60% in Quebec, but in the rest of Canada, that rate has never been above 45%. Quebec and Canada's francophone community are being penalized because the pools of francophone student candidates are located mainly in Africa. Algeria, Senegal and Cameroon are among the top six countries from which international students in Quebec hail, and applications from those countries met with a rejection rate of more than 80% in 2020 and 2021. In the other provinces, India accounts for a large share of the international student pool, but applications from Indian students are rejected at a much lower rate than those from students in French-speaking Africa. In fact, your fellow members on the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration flagged the major discrepancy in their May report. They recommended that the government provide additional funding to visa processing centres in French-speaking African countries to increase staffing to speed up the processing of student biometrics and permits.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Blackburn.

You will have an opportunity to say more during the question-and-answer portion.

Owing to time constraints, some of the members have to leave now to attend committee meetings. Time is also limited because of voting. It was agreed that each party would have six minutes in this round.

The committee's first vice-chair, Joël Godin, will go first.

Go ahead, Mr. Godin. You have six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for their patience. I apologize for the disruption and the fact that we are so tight on time. That's life in politics, Mr. Blackburn.

[Karl Blackburn]

Indeed.