Official Languages Committee on May 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you.

The comments all have to do with ethical allegations, but it's not up to us to decide whether they are admissible or not.

I'll refer to our committee's mandate, which is very short. I'll read it word for word. The mandate of the Standing Committee on Official Languages “shall include, among other matters, the review of and report on official languages policies and programs, including Reports of the Commissioner of Official Languages, which shall be deemed permanently referred to the Committee immediately after they are laid upon the Table.”

It would be quite a stretch to include in the mandate behaviours that may or may not give rise to ethical accusations, especially since we have a parliamentary committee that deals with ethics. I've heard everyone's comments. I understand the issue, but it doesn't in any way, shape, or form fall within the mandate of this committee.

I have therefore determined that this motion is out of order. If the situation is to be studied, it must be done elsewhere. That's my ruling.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm just going to say I disagree with your position.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Before you said that, I was about to say that there's a procedure for appealing a committee chair's ruling. As you know, if my ruling is overturned, the matter will be referred to the House of Commons.

I'll give you the floor.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I would like you to start that procedure. I respect the chair, but I disagree with your ruling. I am therefore appealing the chair's ruling.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's fine. Thank you, Mr. Godin.

We will have a recorded vote on the following question: Shall the decision of the Chair be sustained?

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 7; nays 4)

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Let's proceed.

Mr. Godin, you spoke for seven seconds, if memory serves. Actually, you spoke for 8.38 seconds. You have the floor.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, thank you for respecting House of Commons procedure.

Ms. Chouinard and Mr. Zundel, please excuse us for going through this procedure. This is a tool we have, and it's our duty as parliamentarians to use all the tools at our disposal.

Ms. Chouinard, you talked about indicators in your presentation. Can you define them? What impact does it have on the subsequent evaluation?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

Thank you for the question.

That's actually an issue I hope parliamentarians will address. Part VII of the new Official Languages Act states that the government will protect and promote the presence of strong community institutions. As part of the regulatory process that has just begun, selecting the criteria for determining whether an institution is strong or not is essential. However, that wording can be confusing because lots of the institutions that our communities depend on for local access, as Mr. Zundel explained, are the only ones in their province that offer post-secondary education in French and are not necessarily strong institutions.

Objectively, how do we determine the characteristics of a strong institution? Then, how do we determine, according to the act, who deserves federal funding? These are some very important issues that need to be addressed.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Godin, I'm going to interrupt you and stop the clock.

I just want to let committee members know that there's going to be a vote in the House in 28 minutes. Is there unanimous consent to continue the meeting until one minute before the vote, because we can all vote electronically?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Let's stop five minutes before the vote, Mr. Chair. People who want to vote in person must be given that privilege.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Are there people who want to vote in person in the House and go back and forth?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Ms. Koutrakis, to your right, wanted to vote in the House.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Okay.

I'll let you know five minutes before the vote, and we'll suspend for the vote.

Mr. Godin, let's resume. You've used up one minute and 58.19 seconds of your time.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Chouinard, do you have definitions for the indicators? You've identified the problem. Can you suggest pathways that would allow us, as legislators, to define indicators for effectiveness and performance?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

One of the first things I would recommend is to find out what local communities think.

For example, what are the needs on the ground? How are the existing institutions meeting the needs? What do they need in order to meet the needs on the ground? What institutions would these communities like to have nearby?

We also have to figure out just how strong the institutions are. Look at the University of Sudbury, which is struggling to establish itself, as you know. How do they get stronger? To figure that out, we need to look at the communities that are served by those institutions.

In terms of indicators, those are all things I would look at.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You also said in your opening remarks that we have to make sure the provinces and territories invest in these institutions and target their funding more effectively. That was my understanding of what you said. As you know, provincial, territorial and federal jurisdictions are all involved.

I know you're here today as an individual. Your wealth of experience is valuable to us, and that's why I'm asking you this question. How can the federal government urge the provinces and territories to be realistic, serious and rigorous about their investments and to provide funding on an ongoing basis?

We agree with you, but what can we, as legislators, do to get to the effective agreements we need to achieve that?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

I know I'm not the first person to ask this question about funding, obviously. Negotiations that result in agreements with clearly established priorities are crucial. The parties must agree on accountability, funding amounts and how the funds will be used. Also, the provinces shouldn't decide what the community's priorities should be. Communities themselves must be consulted, and the money must be allocated where it's needed.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

We did a study on Bill C‑13, which is toothless, if you ask me. Do you think the new Official Languages Act contains the necessary tools to improve post-secondary education in Canada for official language minority communities?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

I think it's a good start. Having said that, I also think that what comes next, that is, how the act is implemented and what comes out of that process, is critical. Again, it's about the part VII regulations, so many aspects of which have yet to be clearly expressed so that federal, provincial and territorial officials know what to expect, particularly in terms of accountability.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

You said it's a good start. That worries me, because we need to act fast to curb the decline of French. We're going to be stuck with this act for the next 10 years. Aren't you concerned?

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

We can have the best legislation in the world, but there will be no progress at all if lawmakers like you aren't prepared to implement it as it was intended.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin and Ms. Chouinard.

Next we have Ms. Koutrakis, from the Liberal Party of Canada, for six minutes.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here today.

Professor Chouinard, you've written many scholarly articles in both official languages. When someone wants to write an article, they have to choose the subject and find a journal to publish it. In your opinion, are there more English scholarly journals than French ones? If so, does that mean there's a greater incentive to publish more research in English? Feel free to tell us how this affects your peers as well.

[Stéphanie Chouinard]

Thank you for the question.

My job as a professor involves three main things. First, I teach. People know that because their kids go to university. Professors spend about 40% of their time teaching. Second, I do research. That's another 40% of my job. Third, I provide services to the community, which can be interpreted broadly.

The research part often goes unnoticed, but it's crucial to how universities operate. Support for francophone post-secondary institutions must take that aspect of university work into account. I mean not just research, but research in French, and not just research in French about francophone communities, but research in every other field, such as biology or psychology.

Continuing to conduct research in French is a political choice. That's true in Canada, and it's true in francophone institutions around the world. More and more science is being done in English, and it's been that way for 50 years now. If I'm not mistaken, the Commissioner of Official Languages made that observation in 1973. It is now 2024, and nothing has changed. It certainly continues to be a challenge.

Canada has a French-speaking research ecosystem, especially in the social sciences. I'm kind of lucky that way, compared to my colleagues in the pure sciences. When you work in anglophone or bilingual institutions, as I do, it's very hard to justify publishing in French if you want to rise in the university ranks. The audience is smaller, francophone journals are less prestigious, and the good old impact factor is lower, yet people keep choosing to publish in French. We can be strategic and choose to publish some things in French and others in English, depending on the audience we want to convey our messages to. However, the fact remains that this has consequences for our personal and professional future.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Zundel, when we talk about official languages, we often talk about the federal government and its role in this area, as we're seeing with this particular study. However, the federal government is not the only player. The provinces actually play the most important role in post-secondary education.

Can you tell us about the provincial funding your institution receives?