Official Languages Committee on May 6th, 2024

[Frédéric Lacroix]

In that case, Statistics Canada is completely mistaken.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I'm Franco-Ontarian even though there are plenty of English-language universities in Ontario. I find these comments insulting and they show an intellectual lack of respect for what's really going on internationally. We are 321 million French speakers.

When you say that English-speaking universities are anglicizing Montreal, a speech I've been hearing for 40 years, excuse me, but I think you're full of hogwash. I take back what I said, but you're out in left field. You have to be respectful of the facts.

Mr. Chair, are you going to cut me off?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'm not cutting you off. I was going to tell you that wasn't parliamentary language, but you pulled yourself together before I could say it.

You may continue. You still have 20—

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'll stop the clock. Following up on the last instructions we received, I'd also like to remind everyone that only one microphone should be switched on at a time. It's not often that things get this hot at the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

You have the floor, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

This is witness intimidation and I find it totally unacceptable.

It's as if, according to Mr. Drouin, it's okay for French-language universities outside Quebec to be underfunded and English-language universities in Quebec to be overfunded. Yet Mr. Lacroix had to qualify things earlier by saying that this was only one of the factors—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Beaulieu, can you get to your point of order?

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I raised a point of order, because I feel that by raising his voice and calling guests “full of hogwash”, Mr. Drouin is really Quebec bashing. This is exactly what we often see from Liberals, who say we're aggressive or extremist as soon as we want fair funding.

We're not asking to take away funding from English-language universities, but to be fair in funding English-language and French-language universities.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Beaulieu, I accept your point of order.

Just before I rule, Mr. Godin, did you want to intervene on this point, specifically?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Absolutely, Mr. Chair.

I think that the Standing Committee on Official Languages cannot accept this kind of rhetoric towards witnesses. Witnesses must be respected. If we don't share their opinion, we have the right to do so, since we don't all share the same opinion here.

We sit on the Standing Committee on Official Languages and two witnesses have come here to appear before us. I think Mr. Drouin should withdraw his words and apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

It's already been done, but I totally support these two interventions.

Mr. Beaulieu, you're absolutely right to have raised this point of order.

Mr. Drouin, you withdrew your words. I'm not used to hearing you speak in that tone, but I'll let you continue. You have one minute 15 seconds of speaking time left.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

May I remind you that I was the ardent Ontario defender of the Charter of the French Language in Quebec.

Mr. Beaulieu, I welcome your comments. I'm very respectful of Quebec, I have family there. I respect the French fact. I also respect the fact that we live in a French-speaking minority throughout Canada and North America. On the other hand, I'm not prepared to listen to rhetoric that doesn't lead anywhere. That's my problem. The fact that we have English-speaking universities in Montreal and that, because we have English-speaking universities, we say that all anglicization comes from a university, that's a false debate.

We have to look at the reality of things, we have to have a debate that is true, and the real debate is that our young people are now using virtual platforms, to which neither Quebec's Bill 96 nor Canada's Bill C‑13 apply.

Mr. Lacroix, as an academic, and Mr. Bourdon, as a representative of a post-secondary institution, what are you doing to promote French learning on these virtual platforms? That's my question.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's an excellent question, Mr. Drouin, but your time is up.

We'll move on to the third speaker, the second vice-chair of the committee, from the Bloc Québécois.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

What we heard from Mr. Drouin, we normally hear from Mr. Rodriguez or other Liberal members. When we ask for equitable funding or recognition that francophones are a minority everywhere in Canada, including Quebec, we're told we're attacking anglophones. But we're not attacking anglophones. As Mr. Lacroix said from the outset —

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I would simply like to point out to the Standing Committee on Official Languages that the Bloc Québécois has never defended minority francophones. I know this isn't really a point of order, but…

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

This is indeed not a point of order, Mr. Drouin.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

That's just utterly wrong—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Just a minute, gentlemen. I've been on the Standing Committee on Official Languages for eight or nine years and I've never seen a situation like this. Let's adopt a slightly more civilized approach. After all, we're representatives of our ridings, of our part of the country, and also of the country.

Mr. Beaulieu, I've stopped the clock.

Mr. Drouin's point of order is not a point of order.

Mr. Godin, do you also have a point of order?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'm intervening because one of the witnesses had pressed the “Raise hand” button. Does he have the right to speak or not? If yes, give him the floor. If not, ask him to deactivate the “Raise hand” function.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

All right.

Mr. Bourdon, could you please deactivate the “Raise hand” function? When questions are addressed to either of you, you may or may not answer them, unless otherwise indicated.

Mr. Beaulieu, I'll start the clock again. Only 24 seconds of your speaking time has elapsed and you have the floor again.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Bourdon, I'll give you the opportunity to finish your comment.

[Nicolas Bourdon]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. I would like to clarify a few points in response to Mr. Drouin's comments.

In 2022, Statistics Canada conducted a study on Quebec. The results are quite clear. Attending an anglophone institution increases the likelihood of a graduate working in English by a factor of 12. The correlation is quite strong.

I would also like to respond to Mr. Drouin's statement that we're taking an extremist position. Unfortunately, I was rather taken aback by this statement.

I want to remind you of some basic facts. In Quebec, English is taught as a second language in all francophone institutions from the first year of primary school until the end of CEGEP. This means that thousands of hours of English as a second language classes are already being taught in francophone schools. It isn't true that we're taking an extremist position.

I also want to remind the committee of some historical arguments concerning the supporters of Bill 101. When the debate that led to the adoption of the Charter of the French Language took place in 1976, supporters of this legislation were called extremists, even fascists. After the bill came into force, people realized that allophones and francophones had to attend primary and secondary school in French. People said that Quebeckers would no longer be bilingual and that there would be a dramatic decline in bilingualism, which would be terrible. Yet, in spite of everything, bilingualism has grown in Quebec.

Calling people who wanted to strengthen francophone institutions in Quebec through Bill 101 extremists was wrong. It amounted to overblown rhetoric.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Lacroix, I gather that the only studies available on the funding of francophone universities compared to anglophone universities outside Quebec show that francophone universities are generally underfunded in relation to their demographic weight.

If wanting equitable funding for francophone institutions is described as extremism, English Canada would see it as quite extremist. Do you have any comments on this?

[Frédéric Lacroix]

I conducted this study a long time ago. The figures aren't up to date, unfortunately.

We can see that francophone post‑secondary institutions are significantly underfunded across Canada. Outside Quebec, the situation is particularly critical. In Ontario, the figures are fractions, small percentages. Funding is well below the demographic weight of francophones in Ontario, whose assimilation rate is now over 45%.

The correlation between the underfunding of educational institutions and the assimilation rate is obvious. This holds true everywhere in Canada, including Quebec. In Quebec, francophones are being assimilated. On the island of Montreal, 4.6% of francophones have switched from French as their mother tongue to English as the language most often spoken at home.

The same process is under way in francophone communities across Canada. It's simply further along in Ontario than in Quebec. A major part of this process is the underfunding of francophone educational institutions.

Ottawa isn't solely responsible for this underfunding. A number of factors are at play. Ottawa is a factor given the federal government's major investment in research in Quebec. The figure amounts to hundreds of millions of dollars a year. This impact is significant.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Okay.

I don't know whether you're familiar with a study carried out a few years ago by Patrick Sabourin from the Institut de recherche sur le français en Amérique. The study was quite comprehensive. It showed the impact of allophones, but also francophones, attending English CEGEPs in Montreal.