Evidence of meeting #20 for Official Languages in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was burke.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker
Ms. Burke, you have just 15 seconds left. I would ask you to give us a brief answer, please.
Lawyer, As an Individual
In all respects, the Commissioner of Official Languages will obviously be responsible for ensuring that the laws and regulations are followed properly.
The commissioner's role is obviously to prevent the regulations and the act from losing their meaning. It's essential to see progress, and these laws and regulations have to be properly enforced.
The commissioner is truly part of the action.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.
Mr. Dalton, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC
Good afternoon, Ms. Burke.
It's a pleasure to see you today.
Can you explain the challenges you faced as the French language services commissioner of Ontario?
What did you do to overcome those major challenges?
Lawyer, As an Individual
Are you talking about my position as French language services commissioner?
Lawyer, As an Individual
The biggest challenges are obviously determining how departments can meet their obligations under the French Language Services Act. One of my main tasks was to find solutions with the departments.
There were four broad categories of possibilities.
First was a matter of will. Did I need to persuade the departments to find solutions to issues of non-compliance? Was the will there? Either the will was there or it wasn't. When it wasn't there, it was a challenge.
Second was a matter of power. This was the biggest category of the challenge. Did the government have the power to do things? Did the departments have the tools to actively deliver the service? This aspect of the challenge was partly about supporting departments in finding ways to deliver the service in the province in general.
Third was a matter of duty. It was often difficult to know whether people recognized their duty to comply with the act's requirements. The duty could be moral or legal. The French Language Services Act was often limited in terms of duty, but there would be a duty under the act. I insisted on an equivalency standard, but it wasn't necessarily reflected in black and white in the act. As a result, the duty was hard to find.
Fourth was a matter of expertise. How could departments journey forth toward solutions? The commissioner often had to support them in finding solutions and provide expertise on service delivery.
Conservative
Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC
Do national regulations and laws have a big impact on the situation in Ontario?
When you were the French language services commissioner, how did you deal with those regulations and laws?
Lawyer, As an Individual
Ontario plays an essential role in the heart of the Canadian francophonie. Outside of Quebec, it's the province with the biggest francophone population.
Ontario has a very influential voice. When I was the French language services commissioner, I worked with my colleagues in other provinces and territories, particularly the language commissioners in the Northwest Territories, Nunavut and New Brunswick, to ensure that Ontario's voice could be influential. I often shared best practices.
Conservative
Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC
I'm a member of Parliament from western Canada. We have seen major changes in recent decades. The francophone community used to be more agricultural. It's now increasingly urban, like the rest of the population. I'm sure it's the same thing in Ontario.
How do you view the situation of Ontario's francophone community and the use of French?
Lawyer, As an Individual
In Ontario, the use of French continues to progress. When I was commissioner, I saw progress, especially in terms of French immersion programs. Ontario has a rich francophonie. There are banking, media and educational institutions. Ontarian francophones have a significant presence not only in Ontario, but also across the country and internationally.
I was assistant deputy minister when an application was submitted to join the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie, or OIF. We conveyed the wealth of francophonie in the province of Ontario. International bodies were surprised to learn that French was strong in Ontario. We like to share that story. It was shared as part of the commemoration of the 400 years of French in the province of Ontario.
I can tell you that Ontario plays an essential and important role in the country's francophone ecosystem.
Liberal
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Burke, for being with us today.
At this table, there are people who represent all the communities targeted by the Official Languages Act. There are francophones from outside Quebec; francophones from Quebec; the chair, who is an anglophone from outside Quebec; and myself, as an anglophone from Quebec. I imagine we'll all be asking questions about our respective communities.
Historically, over the last two decades, the commissioner has alternated between a francophone from outside Quebec and an anglophone from Quebec. This time, we won't have an English-speaking Quebecker; we'll have an English-speaking person or
A francophile from outside Quebec.
How are you going to deal with the concerns the English-speaking community in Quebec is feeling about that?
Do you acknowledge that you're as committed to addressing the concerns of English-speaking Quebeckers as you are to those of francophones outside Quebec and in Quebec? Will you be meeting with the English-speaking groups in Quebec as quickly as possible to establish that relationship?
Lawyer, As an Individual
I'll start by saying I am a francophone but also an anglophone from Ontario, and I have had the benefit of living right on the Quebec border in Ontario, where practising both languages was welcome. I continue to very much recognize the minority communities both in the province of Quebec and in Ontario.
As someone who has worked in this field for a very long time, I think most of the achievements are gained by keeping a very close alliance and relationship going with communities across the country, particularly including the anglophone community in Quebec.
Quebec is at the heart of the richness of our language in this country, both from a francophone perspective, with the largest francophone population in the country, and from an anglophone perspective. The largest minority-language community in Canada is the anglophone community in Quebec.
I very much look forward to learning more about the community. I have come with an Ontario anglophone perspective but also an anglophone and francophone perspective that I'm very much looking forward to sharing. I'm also looking forward to learning as I meet constituents in your area.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you so much.
I want to move to minority-language rights in education in section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
As I'm sure you know, Quebec adopted Bill 40, which essentially would have abolished school boards. The English-speaking community fought that in court, and both the Superior Court of Québec and the Quebec Court of Appeal have determined that, indeed, Quebec's law 40 was a violation of section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Quebec has now asked for leave to appeal that to the Supreme Court. Our last official languages commissioner, Raymond Théberge, sharply criticized the Quebec government for its plan to dismantle English school boards. He said, “You have to fight for the schools you have, the school boards that you have,” at a conference on English education in Quebec in 2024. He went on to state that his office would help in the court fight against the plan to scrap school boards. He said, “Yes, it will end up in front of the Supreme Court of Canada and we will be there to defend Section 23 every time,” referring to section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Could you please reassure English-speaking Quebeckers that you share this desire to defend their school boards and other institutions, including section 23, before the Supreme Court? This will affect, of course, not only English school boards in Quebec but other provinces potentially seeking to dismantle minority-language school boards.
Lawyer, As an Individual
As a former educator, I can say that education is critical both for the minority community in Quebec and elsewhere across the country.
It is a very legal question that is going before the courts. I'll be very interested in learning more about it. I do recognize the section 23 charter rights are extended right across the country, and I do believe we have to uphold those rights.
With the benefit of a little more time in the position and fully developing my own position on the point, I'd be happy to come back and contribute further to the conversation.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
I want to wish you luck. Thank you so much for being here before us; I really appreciate it.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker
Thank you, Mr. Housefather.
Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Thank you.
I'll quickly say that in Quebec, CEGEPs and universities are one of the problems. The Quebec government has tried to limit the damage a bit, and one of the great advances that have been made is with respect to the children of Bill 101, namely the fact that immigrant children attend French schools.
Almost half of allophones who attended French-language schools go on to attend English-language CEGEPs. The government has always given anglophone CEGEPs twice as much funding in proportion to the demographic weight of anglophones. Universities receive almost three times as much, and the federal government is overfunding CEGEPs even more.
Do you intend to get involved in this debate, or will you let Quebec manage the issue of post-secondary education?
Lawyer, As an Individual
Again, I think that's a question I'll have to think about. How the commissioner's office will make comments and engage in the dialogue will be determined over time.
To answer the question about education, I would say that it goes back to what I mentioned in my previous answers. Education is essential to ensuring the sustainability of Canada's official languages, whether in English or in French. I'm always interested in a debate on education, and I look forward to contributing to the discussion.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
We talked about positive measures.
A number of francophone stakeholders outside Quebec also believe that some recently tabled regulations may reduce the scope of the obligations set out in Bill C‑13.
Do you have the same concern?
What role can you play, without encroaching on the federal government's regulatory authority?