Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 17th, 2006

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

For the reserves too?

[Brigadier-General Linda Colwell, Director General, Personnel Generation Policy, Department of National Defence]

I can't guarantee that they are provided to the reserves, but they certainly should be.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Will you let us know on that one?

[BGen Linda Colwell]

We can get back to you on that.

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

But there certainly is a comprehensive set of exit surveys, both when people are retiring from the Canadian Forces and also for those individuals who choose to leave prior to retirement.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

And I notice that in paragraph 2.15 of the Auditor General's report, it says there are some occupations in which you're overstaffed. You had about 940 personnel in excess, which is actually up from what the AG found in 2002. You went on to explain it by saying you need to have a few people in reserve because some will leave.

It seems to me that if you expect attrition in skilled areas, then you staff to ensure that you don't end up with a shortage. But when the AG points out that you have an excess, you say that's okay and that it's not an excess because you count the numbers differently, shall we say.

There seems to be some poor planning here, in that you have a dearth of applicants, or you have a shortage of people in one area and an oversupply in others. Why does this happen? The private sector wouldn't do that.

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

The Canadian Forces personnel system is a dynamic organization. As you're aware, we now have almost 64,000 total paid strength, and to—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

But that's small compared to some big private organizations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Admiral Pile.

Thank you very much, Mr. Williams.

Mr. Christopherson, for eight minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you all very much for your presence today. It's much appreciated.

Just a reminder to my friend across the way, Enron is the private sector too. There's nothing magical about the private sector. They don't hire humans from some other place, other than the public sector—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I believe I have the floor, Mr. Williams.

So to suggest that somehow there's some kind of special efficiency built into the word “private”, I would suggest is a little bit misplaced.

First off, I want to congratulate...well, I'll join in with Mr. Williams, seeing that it was a fine way to start, and offer up our support. But unlike them, some of us happen to believe there is plenty of room to be very supportive of our armed services, our individuals, especially the soldiers who are on the front line, and yet be willing to have a political debate about what the mission is. We believe that separation is legitimate and real and allows us to unanimously say there is support for the troops while we perhaps differ on what they've been assigned to do.

Let me just say that I was pleased to see, in the third point, that there's been such satisfactory progress. That's really key for us, taking a look at where you've been and how you've responded to previous concerns that have been raised. I'm very pleased to see this here, and I think it says a lot about the kind of work that's being done. The more I'm involved--and I step in sometimes for my friend on the defence committee--I thoroughly enjoy appreciating and understanding more the professionalism of our services on a firsthand basis, and this just backs that up.

Having said that, I also have a few questions to raise. I'm going to hit a couple of hard questions first. They're not loaded; they are what they are.

Given the fact that we are in the midst of a war, I'd be curious to know whether or not we have an increase in AWOL--assuming we still use that term. I get that from the old movies. But if that's the term, do we have a growing problem with soldiers leaving active service?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

In terms of those soldiers serving in theatre, I know of no instances of absence without leave.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Excellent. I'm glad to hear that.

The recruiting ads just started up, and there has been some debate about the ads, whether they're a good thing or a bad thing. I want to raise an issue about the fact that you chose one of the areas of the country where there's the greatest unemployment.

I understand that makes sense from a recruiting point of view, but it does beg the question of whether we don't have enough to offer people who have real choices, that they might make this a choice. Do we feel, as a nation, that we're in a position of having to go to people who have fewer choices and therefore our potential success rate may be higher?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

The choice of start location was just that--a start location. It was just to get a sense of reaction to the advertising. We've actually launched the campaign nationwide as of October 9.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Good, because the experience we've seen from the Americans in Vietnam is somewhat troubling, in terms of who actually went and served and died--the demographic. So I'm glad to hear that's the case. In fact, I wouldn't mind hearing at some point, Chair, a report on that regional attraction and how that's going, so that, quite frankly, we aren't just reaching out to people who are desperate and saying, “You've got no choice, but here's something for you.” I would think if we want to maintain the professionalism we want in our armed forces, it has to be based on something other than, “I didn't have any other choice in life.”

I'll leave that with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Christopherson, if I may, are you asking for that?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, I was just leaving that with you as a request to be picked up later as something for the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Is it available on a regional basis, Admiral Pile?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

Absolutely, it is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Can you get back to the committee with that information?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

I was just uncertain as to what additional information—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Actually, to be going forward, Chair, I appreciated that it was a great answer. He said they started there and they're going to go nationwide. That's great. I just wonder if there will be regional breakdowns available as we move forward to ensure we aren't drawing from one region more than others, and what that might tell us.

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

I have to tell you, overall it's a good news story for the Canadian Forces. Since the early 1960s, after the Korean War, we've been a declining organization in terms of the size. It wasn't until 2005, when we actually went 180 degrees in the other direction, that we were expanding, and we've continued in that direction.

I must admit there was not a lot of investment and attention paid to recruitment. The Canadian Forces could sort of sit back and rely on certain areas of the country to sustain what we needed at that point in time. In particular regions of the country, like Atlantic Canada, the prairies to some extent, Ontario and Quebec because of their size, and pockets of British Columbia were providing, essentially, a production of white males for the armed forces. What we have to pay a lot of attention to now is that it's estimated that by 2046, white Caucasians in this country will be in a minority, and it's extremely important for us to get out and expand the applicant pool to the diverse nature of what this country actually represents demographically.

So regional focus is extremely important to us, and I didn't want that to be—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that, Admiral. It's duly noted.

It's much like our police services, our fire services. If we want people to feel like they really are first-class Canadians, then make sure they're reflected in the way we run the country.

I appreciate very much hearing that.

My colleagues have raised concerns about language issues. I'd like to move to a gender issue. There was a disturbing article in Maclean's in May, and there have been other reports of potential harassment of female recruits and that the dropout rate of women is much higher. In fact, from 1989 to 1996, 32% of women dropped out of the army, both voluntarily and involuntarily, compared to 11.9% for men. And in 1996--I guess those are the latest statistics available for this article--15% of women and 8% of men.... I don't want to get into the details. You know what I'm getting at.

Give me the assurances. I want to hear that these kinds of things are being addressed and that we're making sure our armed forces are as welcoming to women as they are to men.