Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2006

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I voted against during the last meeting because I thought we were proceeding in a sloppy way. I see we've tried to tighten things up. At the last meeting it was presented to us that it's a maximum amount of $25,000, but it could cost, as you've said yourself, much less—$2,000 or $3,000.

Has anyone bothered speaking with Mr. Franks to find out how much this may actually cost? Shouldn't the contract, then, be for the amount that Mr. Franks feels it will cost him? If we do this in an open-ended sort of way and are allowed to go up to $25,000, the odds are that's what it's going to cost.

Has anyone actually spoken with Mr. Franks to find out how many days he figures...? We know the per diem rate now; it's $599 per day. How many days does he expect? What travel does it entail? We've put $4,000 into travel expenses. What travel does he...?

I understand we've tried to put some parameters in place, but I'm still lacking details to be able to vote on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

If I may attempt an answer—and perhaps I'll ask the analyst or the clerk to jump in—I think, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, it will depend on the committee. Mr. Williams raised a point last time, and it was added to the terms of reference. We're embarking on a study. We don't know how long it's going to take, ourselves. It's fluid; it's a continuum. The Auditor General will be presenting two chapters on November 28, and we'll be hearing from witnesses.

We don't know how many days we will require this individual. I would be reluctant to say what it is, because we may not need him for that amount. I'd be reluctant to say it's going to be two days, because we may need him for more than that. It depends where we go with the issue. He'll be under our instructions, and we can give you a report.

It's what I call a professional services contract for which we have to have a clearly defined budget, clearly defined terms of reference, and a per diem, but for how long or to what extent he is needed really depends on the committee, and we don't have that information in front of us now.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Chair, with all respect, my question was whether anyone has spoken with Mr. Franks to find out how many days he expects it will take him, given the parameters that have been set out. At least we will then have an idea of what the actual cost will be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I've spoken with Dr. Franks on the issue, but I've never broached the subject of the number of days. I really think he would turn the question right back to me, and I wouldn't be able to give him an intelligent answer.

Brian or Georges, do you want to try that?

[The Clerk]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I spoke to Dr. Franks this morning, and I asked him how long he thinks he's going to be working, knowing that the per diem allowed by the Board of Internal Economy is a maximum of $600 per day. He couldn't tell me how many days he's going to be working, because he has to meet people, draft a report, come back, and follow what the committee is doing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We have to bear in mind that Dr. Franks is a servant of this committee.

Mr. Pacetti.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

It's just to help out.

I think it's a normal procedure to put in a maximum. I think it's fine. This is the way you operate. If you're only going to put ten days but he needs eleven, you have to go back and re-put the motion, and then go to the Liaison Committee and ask for the money. The Liaison Committee will meet maybe once or twice a month, although I'm not really sure how often they meet.

This is the discretion of the chair. He has to work with Dr. Franks, so we have to give him some leeway. If we can't trust the chair, for lack of a better word, then I think we're not in the right business here.

You're not going to pay somebody if they don't do the work, but you have to have some parameters. I think 35 days is reasonable. Let's just get with it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Are there any other comments?

As I said, we did have a fairly good discussion on this issue at the last meeting. I think it would be appropriate to put the question to the floor.

(Motion as amended agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We're going to suspend for about thirty seconds, and then we're going to resume in camera to discuss the tenth report of the committee.

[Proceedings continue in camera]