Evidence of meeting #37 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was public.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rob Walsh  Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons
Gregory Tardi  Senior Parliamentary Counsel (Legal), House of Commons
Brian O'Neal  Committee Researcher

4 p.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

The only problem with that, Mr. Chairman, is that Mr. Williams might want to hold off the public discussion until you've had an opportunity, if you choose to do this, to hear from the witnesses about the discrepancies.

If you publicly point out the discrepancies and how you find the discrepancies to be worrisome, you're simply offering an opportunity to the witness to rehearse subsequent testimony in a way to avoid any accountability. You might want to hear what the explanation is for the discrepancy, and then you might have a public discussion later about the acceptability of this divergence in the testimony.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Another point is that if we consider it seriously, we can put it in a report and of course the report would be public for all to see.

I only want a clarification before I go to Mr. Laforest, and I have a question for Mr. Williams on something that I'm not totally clear on.

If we decide to refer the matter to the Office of the Attorney General of Ontario, do we have to go to the House or can we do it through a motion from this committee?

4 p.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

I don't know that the Attorney General is necessarily that concerned in what form the information reaches him or her. Once the information is there, he has a duty in the public interest to prosecute where a criminal offence has taken place or to not prosecute, along the lines that Mr. Tardi—

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

In the House we can go directly to the—

4 p.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

As far as the Attorney General is concerned, I don't believe he could insist that you go to the House. However, that might be the Attorney General's preference and it might be the House's preference that you do that.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Laforest.

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Mr. Chairman, if I can—

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Go ahead, Mr. Laforest.

February 7th, 2007 / 4 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Tardi, you said that, in the process that the committee could adopt, what ultimately counted—this is the most important sentence that I retained—was the public interest. That's what should guide the decisions and orientations that the committee takes. What led the committee to request a study on discrepancies in testimony is that people testified before the committee before going to the Gomery Commission and there were fairly significant discrepancies. We read that. It is indeed the public interest that led the committee to wonder whether a committee of the House had been abused.

The new federal Accountability Act that was passed provides for penalties for the future, but the public wants to know whether there has been any misconduct and whether it will be punished. You say that the credibility of democracy depends on this decision. Many people are expecting potential effects in various areas. Some people have been prosecuted in court, but there were discrepancies, and the public realized it. People said things here and the contrary in the other place, with some minor differences, as you noted.

Like Mr. Williams, I believe that the committee should hold public hearings, but first it should hold an in camera meeting to determine how to proceed and the direction it should take.

Is what I've just said consistent with what you said about the public interest?

4:05 p.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

I believe so.

4:05 p.m.

Senior Parliamentary Counsel (Legal), House of Commons

Gregory Tardi

It's essentially consistent. Committee members should consider reviewing this report and come to their own conclusions as to whether witnesses should be recalled or each person asked to justify himself once again. Is that worth the trouble? Does that become repetitive at one point?

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

That's the question we should ask ourselves.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Laforest.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, and then Mr. Williams.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Did you say Mr. Williams?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Yes.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

He is speaking twice to the issue. I'd like to speak once. I'm on your list.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Do you want to go back on the list?

4:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I want to respond to the question, the point you raised, Mr. Chairman. That's all.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Okay. We're reasonably flexible here, but I would like to try to clean up within the hour.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Then put me back on your list, Chair.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Are there ongoing criminal investigations with regard to this matter?

4:05 p.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

What do you mean by “this matter”?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

The sponsorship.

4:05 p.m.

Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel, House of Commons

Rob Walsh

I don't know. The RCMP doesn't share with me as to whether or not their investigations are continuing. I don't know, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.