Evidence of meeting #45 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was stewart.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
So your previous friends from the Canadian Football League...you put calls into them to reserve the tickets for you. Is that—
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
No, I didn't; Football Canada did that.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
And you would stay in the hotel where they'd be staying?
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
We would get a reservation from the league, but not necessarily where they were staying.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
See, here's the problem. We have no record of any meetings at or any visits to correctional facilities or meetings with people from those correctional facilities. We seem to have documentation that indicates that somehow they may have done it without you calling them, but you were well aware of it, and this was done months and months and months in advance. When I couple that with chapters 11.3 and 11.31 and I take a look, on 80 occasions where hospitality bills were submitted by you, it turns out that approximately 75% of those occasions--58--were for family, friends, and acquaintances.
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
Sorry, is there a question there?
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I seem to see a pattern of abuse, sir, and you don't seem—
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
—to have recollection. You've stated that at 72 your memory isn't what it used to be. You say documents have been destroyed, but perhaps not all. If those documents, from what I understand, were to counter anything the Auditor General has stated, from the documentation that she was able to access through your offices...I'm sure you must have thought that if any of those documents you have would counter these allegations, you would have been forthcoming with those documents, sir. That hasn't occurred.
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
I don't have any documents.
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
I'd just like to say that it had always been my habit to combine business with cities where there was a Grey Cup festival. A festival is what goes on during the week. Unfortunately, without access to those records, I can't be more specific.
I'd like to assure the members of the committee that I never intended to do anything wrong. I was combining two things on the same trip.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Mr. St-Jean mentioned that you're doing some horizontal audits with some of these small agencies, and so on. We're trying to prevent mismanagement in all departments. Do you think the step Mr. St-Jean has mentioned will help curtail some difficulties we have in small agencies?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes, I think the establishment of the internal audit group in the Comptroller General to specifically look at these small agencies is a very good initiative.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Then I have a comment for the deputy minister.
I understand that as an accounting officer you're answerable before this committee and before Parliament. I suggest that this quasi-judicial, independent, sub-agency thing is a loophole that you can drive an eight-ton truck through, let alone a three-ton truck, as far as making deputy ministers responsible for what goes on in their departments. This is a concern to me because we run into too many of these situations.
Mr. Stewart, when you started your job you had five people in your department. When you left you had 26. Are the Clifford Olsons of our world being better served today because we have 26 people in this department rather than the five you started with?
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
I think all the inmates were dealt with in a professional manner, whether it was Mr. Olson or someone else.
During my time there we not only expanded the office but enhanced our role with both staff and inmates at the institutions.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Another very troubling comment that came up today is on performance pay. You don't call it performance pay; it's just something called management pay. It seems to me that when you're hired for a senior position to manage a department, you assume that management goes with the job, but along comes this extra payment that automatically goes to people.
To the deputies who are here, are we going to continue with these kinds of automatic payments regardless of whether people are doing a job or not? There are a lot of trials going on with ex-CEOs of companies on these sorts of issues. I don't think we should have a lower standard than in the private sector.
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel and Special Projects Secretariat, Privy Council Office
The issue with performance pay for heads of quasi-judicial tribunals is the legal difficulty of having the government assess performance of someone who has an investigatory or decision-making capacity vis-à-vis government decisions. There is case law to that effect saying that it is seen as going against the required independence of the agency for the government to have flexibility in what amount should be attributed as performance pay. This regime of having payments made in recognition of management responsibilities for heads of quasi-judicial tribunals was created in 1990 in reaction to the cases that had occurred in some provinces. That's the regime we have in place.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Fitzpatrick.
Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.
That concludes the second round of questions.
Mrs. Fraser and Mr. Stewart, do you have any brief closing remarks before we go to the second part of the meeting?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I'd just like to thank the committee for its interest in the report. I hope the committee will look at issues like roles and responsibilities, and perhaps the training given to order in council appointees. These are longstanding issues, and in fact the committee made a recommendation concerning training back in 2004. Those are issues you might want to consider as you go forward.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Ms. Fraser.
Do you have any closing remarks, Mr. Stewart?