Evidence of meeting #45 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was stewart.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
Well, there were five people in the office, so that was the department. You're suggesting the office of the—
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
You had a fiduciary duty to the Crown as a leader of the department in order to fulfill your responsibilities. You had a fiduciary duty for ethics, for administrative oversight, for leadership of the department. What initiative did you take to make sure you fully understood the performance standards you had to act upon?
4:55 p.m.
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
Well, 30 years ago I don't think they—
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Well, as your department began to grow, Mr. Stewart, you must have thought with your added responsibilities that at some point in time you must communicate with one of these departments and find out what your responsibilities would be. At any time, while you were the leader of that department, did you ever consider that that would be a good question?
4:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Okay, a brief response, Mr. Stewart, and then I'm going to move on to Mr. Christopherson. Have you a brief response or any response?
4:55 p.m.
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
No, I never met with anybody, and I never considered it. I was too busy dealing with the many complaints to consider those things. Perhaps I should have.
4:55 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Let me just say that as endlessly fascinating and interesting as it is to continue to query a senior public servant about how they worked from home without electricity or a phone, I want to get to the accountability on this.
But something just came up and I want to ask about that. Mr. Stewart just said that somebody in Finance or somewhere told him he didn't have to pay back this computer. Do we know anything about that? Can I get a commitment from somebody, an undertaking, that it will be looked into and reviewed and that we'll get an answer as to whether that happened, and if it did, was it appropriate, and if it isn't--
5 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
We will work together to look at that and get back to the committee.
5 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
That's fine.
I have to say again, Chair, it has been interesting to play around with some of the details, but I really don't feel that we have any better sense of accountability as to who didn't do their job that allowed these things to happen. The infractions, the concerns, and the allegations are one thing, if they're true, and for working purposes they are at this table, but I still don't, as a member of this committee, have a sense that we know who dropped the ball. And it's incredibly frustrating.
So I'm going to ask again. I'm going to ask the Auditor General. Maybe I'm just not getting it, but where in this process is the first place that somebody should have caught this?
5 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Maybe I can answer a little differently. Where is the first place to have prevented this? I would say it would be with the appointment process and the training guidance given to GIC appointees.
It is clear Mr. Stewart has said he received no training. I can tell you when I was appointed I received no training, no instructions, nothing, and I would suspect that Mr. Sapers would also confirm that he didn't receive a whole lot of training either. So I think there's a question about the role of PCO, the guidance that is given to people. Do they understand their roles and responsibilities and the values of the public service? To me, that's number one. And as deputy head of any organization, the deputy head is ultimately accountable for what goes on in that organization.
5 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Well, no, Mr. Sapers is now the—
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Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Within an organization.
Then I go back again to the checks and balances that should be in place. So the senior financial officer has a role to play, and in fact any public servant who has a duty if they—
5 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Well, that's my point, Auditor General. I realize that according to your report, internally we have all kinds of problems.
And notwithstanding what you're saying, sir, that the mandate was being fulfilled, we have a whole lot of other problems.
But getting outside this shop, where should these things have been caught? Where do we focus our attention?
5 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I would say certainly the Solicitor General should have noted some of the issues in the processing of the payments. There should have been—
5 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Which we can't get to the details of because we don't have the deputy that was there at the time.
5 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
There's some oversight that should also be done by the Treasury Board Secretariat. Even if the office was a separate employer, there is still reporting that has to be done to the Treasury Board Secretariat.
5 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I realize my time is up. Let me just say, Chair, that I understand all of this, but I hope we focus our report on those areas that get glossed over. They're not very sexy or interesting or headline material, but that seems to be where the check and balance, the accountability, the prevention part is, and that's what we're supposed to be focusing on, so I hope we find a way in our report. I say to our analysts to dig into that a little bit, drill down a little bit more, so we can put some emphasis and not just get caught up in the interesting stuff.
Thanks, Chair.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Christopherson.
Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, three minutes.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Previously, Mr. Poilievre noted that you had been in the Grey Cup cities over the weekends of the last five Grey Cups while you were still in your office. You basically said it was coincidental. When he questioned whether or not there was any documentation of having visited correctional facilities, you said, and I quote, “You don't have to go to prison to deal with inmate complaints”.
Now, I understand that a number of your flights and hotel reservations were made by Football Canada and the Canadian Football League. Were you discussing inmate complaints with Football Canada and the Canadian Football League?
5 p.m.
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
No, nothing.... At Grey Cup time, airlines and hotels are at a maximum. You can't get a room in a hotel—
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Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Sir, it's noted these were booked months and months and months in advance.
5 p.m.
Former Correctional Investigator, As an Individual
And that's why. The CFL reserved a number of hotel rooms for people who were going to go to the city where the game was. Football Canada is the amateur arm of football in this country and they would reserve, say, half a dozen tickets, depending on how many people were going from Ottawa, and do it early on so they would get the tickets and get the hotels where they wanted to stay.