Mr. Chairman, I will try to answer as quickly as I can, but these are not easy issues.
I've been given four names. I can tell you right off the bat that I know Ms. Denise Revine, but I had nothing to do with her. I never interacted with her. I was not involved in any discussions about what happened in terms of the reorganization. I gave no instructions whatsoever. I only learned recently from this committee that she's working at home.
In terms of Mr. Frizzell, I wouldn't know him if he walked in the room. That's not being disrespectful; I simply wouldn't know him. But you have clear evidence in front of this committee that was given to you by Assistant Commissioner Dave Gork, who testified before this committee that he was asked by Inspector Roy, from the Ottawa Police Service, to remove him for certain good cause from that investigation. Again, I was never consulted. I had nothing to do with that particular point.
I want to get to the issue of Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay. After I had discussed the matter with Mr. Lewis, I decided what my course of action on this, based on the information I had, would be, and it was to have the audit. Shortly after the audit had been initiated, Barbara George came to me and said, “Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay appears to have some problems about what is taking place relative to the pension fund. You should talk to him.” I said, “Fine, please bring him in.”
She brought Fraser Macaulay into my office. There were the three of us there. These, Mr. Murphy, are my exact words.
I said, “Fraser, I hear that you have some concerns about what happened with the pension fund.” He said, “Yes, Commissioner, I've had a lot of concerns about how this has been run and what's been going on.” I said, “Fraser, how long have you known about this?” He said to me, “Almost a year and a half I've known about these concerns.” I said, “Fraser, who have you told about his matter?” And his answer was, “Commissioner, I haven't told anybody.” I said, “Fraser, why haven't you told anybody?” He said, “Because Jim Ewanovich is my boss and I'm afraid if I told anybody it would affect my career.” I was clearly very disappointed and hurt by his statement. I said, “Fraser, I want you to come back to me here in a little while and send me a note and tell me what your concerns are.” He left the office.
I had Barb George in my office. I said to Barb George, “Barb, Fraser has made a serious error in judgment in this case. He's a good young officer. I've known him since he was a very young member. I believe in him. I want him to recover from this and I want him to move ahead. I need you to get him out of this environment that he's in, and I want you to find a good job for him. Find a good job. This is a man I want to save, because I believe in him.”
She left and she came back to me a few days later. A few days later she came back and said, “Commissioner, I think I have a recommendation on what we should do with Fraser Macaulay.” I said, “What is that?” She replied, “There is a secondment that's been requested by DND. It's a very good job. It's an important job. DND want this. Fraser has the expertise to do this work.” I said, “Great. I want him to move there because I want him to learn from this experience.”
Before he left, I had Fraser in my office and I said, “Fraser, I know you're not happy with this, but I believe in you. You're a good member. I want you to recover from this mistake. You go down to DND, show them what we're made of, and you'll come back and you'll have a very good job.”
Now, I know this notion has been thrown around about a punishment transfer. There are no punishment transfers in the RCMP.
When he came back—