Public Accounts Committee on April 23rd, 2007

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

In terms of the contracting processes, in the RCMP, when all this happened, we knew there were problems with Mr. Crupi. What we did is put somebody in there to watch what he was doing. After that, we actually took his authority away.

What Mr. Crupi did was go to Consulting and Audit Canada, and there he found somebody, in terms of collusion, to work with him. A lot of the contracts that were done to clean up these files were done with Consulting and Audit Canada, where Mr. Crupi and others had the authority to go. It's a recognized organization. Lots of people in the government use Consulting and Audit Canada. When you have a big project to do and you have to do it in a short period of time, you don't go out and hire a whole lot of people and have them afterwards; you try to get specialists through their contracting process.

Unfortunately, what happened is that there was somebody he colluded with, and in fact a lot of contracts were given out--as Mr. Poilievre has pointed out before in the KPMG report--that were not properly tendered and went directly to certain individuals.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Are you satisfied you and your office did everything you should and are responsible for in this matter, or are there areas you'd like to get on the record where you could have done a better job?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

As soon as we knew there were problems, we stopped the contracting and took away his authority. Now, what happened after that is that...when he went to Consulting and Audit Canada, he actually had the authority. What we have done since is to say that nobody in the RCMP can go directly to Consulting and Audit Canada without coming through our contracting shop. So that's an additional control we have put in place, which hopefully will stop this in the future.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

When you say “we”, do you mean your office and staff, or do you mean you and Mr. Ewanovich? My question would be, how closely did you work with him on the issue of the concerns around Mr. Crupi?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

When I say “we”, I'm talking about corporate management and comptrollership.

How closely did I work with Mr. Ewanovich? He was responsible for pension administration and life insurance as part of the human resources sector.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

But he's gone too; he stepped down. He is closely tied in with this. It all needs to be sorted out in the right place.

But I'm still a little curious. You used some pretty strong language right now about Mr. Crupi, in terms of his being in collusion. But what about Mr. Ewanovich? Was he entirely squeaky clean, in your opinion? Were there problems? And how did you act?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I would add that there were at least three, if not four, levels of supervision that fell apart within human resources when this was happening.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Why?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

You'd have to ask Mr. Ewanovich and company, but he was the ADM in charge or assistant commissioner at the time. He had a director general under that.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How closely would you work with Mr. Ewanovich on a regular basis?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

No more closely than I would work with any other deputy commissioner. We were part of the executive committee and other committees, and that's how closely—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

And he will not testify, in your opinion, that there were any discussions at all—ever—between you and him with regard to any of these contracting matters? Do you believe that?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Absolutely not.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. Good.

Ms. McLellan, I find myself in a little bit of an awkward spot, because I've been where you are at the provincial level in terms of the relationship between the Solicitor General and the Commissioner of the OPP, and I do have an understanding of how much comes at one.

I'd be curious to know what your regular routine was in terms of meeting with the commissioner and staying on top of issues. How often would you meet? What sorts of things would you talk about? Who would be present at those meetings?

[Anne McLellan]

We did not meet on a regularly scheduled basis. If there were issues the commissioner wanted to bring to my attention, or issues I wanted to deal with on a face-to-face basis with him, those meetings would be arranged. My staff and the department met with the commissioner on a regular basis, and often I was informed about issues--for example, budgetary issues. When I became minister in December 2003, it was a brand new Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and while the RCMP was an institution of long standing, it was part and parcel of a new department, and we spent a fair bit of time with all the agencies working through what the new department was about and the increased pressures on the force.

When the commissioner and I met, we often talked about the increased policing pressures on the force, because of events around the border, because of the new approach to policing—integrated policing—of which you are well aware, working with either provincial police like the OPP, city police, or agencies like the CBSA.

So I think it is fair to say that some of our discussions, at least, were in the context of a new department and how we would all, as agencies in a portfolio department, work together on a common mandate and on the budgetary needs and pressures on the force. We also had to deal with the pressures from the provincial policing side in provinces where the force policed provincially, in terms of ongoing demands for more officers. Therefore, we had the issues of RCMP Depot and its need for more budgetary resources, which I was glad to see Mr. Flaherty reannounced in his first budget. We had indicated we would increase the number of trainees going through Depot.

Those were the kinds of issues we dealt with. But if you're asking me if I met with the commissioner every week, no, I did not.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, for seven minutes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

We had testimony here by the former commissioner that he didn't recall discussing this at any point with Ms. McLellan, but he did reference having a number of discussions with the current minister, Stockwell Day. We know that Mr. Lewis had provided detailed information to Mr. Poilievre as far back as last fall. It appears that member of Parliament Sorenson had information.

Actually, the question then becomes who among Conservatives didn't have detailed information going way back, which makes it even more perplexing why we've been blocked over a number of months from moving forward on this. My question then is—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

On a point of order, Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj is making mistaken remarks. He has indicated that only discussions between Mr. Zaccardelli and Mr. Day occurred, but today Ms. McLellan claims she had discussions with Mr. Zaccardelli about this matter.

[An hon. member]

No, no. Her chief of staff.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I just want to put that on the record. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay. I don't think that's correct. I'm going to ask Ms. McLellan. I didn't hear that.

[Anne McLellan]

No. In fact, what I said was that early in 2004, when I became minister, I was made aware of the concerns around the pension fund, that an audit had been done, and that there had been--what do you call it?--a management audit plan or something put in place to rectify those mistakes. That's what I learned in 2004.

I think that probably came from those great big general briefing books that every agency, including the RCMP, prepares for new ministers.

I do not recall any direct conversation that I had with Commissioner Zaccardelli in relation to the audit, the management plan, and so on.