Public Accounts Committee on April 23rd, 2007

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I'll be leading the rest.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay, Mr. Poilievre, seven minutes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Welcome.

Ms. McLellan, on April 19, 2004, you said in the House of Commons that “there is no conduct on the part of the commissioner that needs to be investigated”. Do you still believe there is no conduct on the part of Mr. Zaccardelli that needs to be investigated?

[Anne McLellan]

I would like the committee to be clear in terms of the conduct I was referring to. If you look at Mr. Sorenson's question, he was referring to the Ottawa police investigation. That was a criminal investigation. It did not deal with internal allegations of mismanagement in the sense that this was focused as an independent criminal investigation. Was there criminal wrongdoing? As part and parcel of that, the Ottawa Police Service might choose to do and say whatever it wanted.

I want this made plain: when this member of the House demanded that the Ottawa Police Service investigate Commissioner Zaccardelli, he was alleging, inferring, that in fact Commissioner Zaccardelli had committed a criminal offence.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Actually, no, what you said here is that there is--

[Anne McLellan]

If you're asking me, do I believe...or did that surprise me? Was I shocked by that? Yes, I was.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

No, Ms. McLellan--

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Order.

Let's let the witness finish the answer, please.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

She's not answering the question, she's running the clock.

[Anne McLellan]

Criminal investigations are the most serious form of investigation that we in our society can carry out.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay. Actually, what Mr. Sorenson was referring to in his question was the fact that Mr. Zaccardelli had shut down an investigation, a fact that had been made known to you in the package that Mr. Lewis sent to you. It's quoted here. Mr. Lewis says that the commissioner “stopped the investigation”.

So that was known to you when you answered this question, and yet you said “there is no conduct on the part of the commissioner that needs to be investigated”. You did not qualify that statement, madam, by saying it was related to one aspect or another.

[Anne McLellan]

No, because in fact Sorenson's question qualifies it. He wasn't talking about anything other than the Ottawa Police Service. They were only called in to investigate whether there was alleged criminal wrongdoing. That is what the whole question hinges on.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

What it says here is that the RCMP commissioner--

[Anne McLellan]

The Ottawa Police Service--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I have the question we're discussing here. I have it:

“Mr. Speaker, for almost a year the RCMP commissioner knew about the misappropriation of moneys”--that is something, by the way, that's alleged here in Mr. Lewis's report, which you have--“from the RCMP pension funds. In fact, it was that commissioner who shut down the initial probe”--you knew that, as well--“into the possible fraud and abuse of authority within the force. Only after the scandal was made public in the media was the Ottawa police service called in to investigate”.

“My question is for the Minister of Public Safety. Are the Ottawa police investigating the commissioner's conduct as well as the misappropriation of funds?”

Now, you stood up and said that none of the commissioner's conduct whatsoever needed to be investigated. Those were your words. Mr. Sorenson referred here only to things you would have known about, because you were given them in this report from Mr. Lewis. And I have it right here. I have the document number.... It's from Ron Lewis. He copied you on a note he had written to the CHRO on January 4, 2004, in which he said: “The Commissioner contacted me by phone within a couple of days to advise me that he stopped the investigation”.

All these accusations that Mr. Sorenson put forward in the question to you, you were aware of, because they were in a package that you say you had received and reviewed. Yet you prejudged the outcome of that criminal investigation by standing up in the House of Commons and saying, “there is no conduct on the part of the commissioner that needs to be investigated”. That's what you said.

[Anne McLellan]

Yes, that's right.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

And quite frankly, Mr. Lewis certainly did not come here and say that there was no conduct on the part of Mr. Zaccardelli that needed to be investigated. You seem to be rather alone in that opinion. Even if it were true, do you think it's appropriate for the Minister of Public Safety to prejudge the outcome of a criminal investigation by standing in the House of Commons and saying that there is no conduct on the part of the commissioner that needs to be investigated?

[Anne McLellan]

What I will say, again, is that the Ottawa Police Service was called in to do an independent criminal investigation. You are asking me whether I was surprised that someone would stand in the House and infer that the Commissioner of the RCMP, who had called the Ottawa police in to conduct the independent criminal investigation, had committed a criminal offence. Yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Why were you surprised? It was right--

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Order.

Mr. Poilievre, you've had two minutes to ask the question. I'm going to instruct you to let the witness answer the question. Please.

[Anne McLellan]

In fact, there are many accusations that--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

It's right here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Just continue. Take your time. We have a very ignorant member, and we're going to control this. Just take your time and answer the question.

[Anne McLellan]

There are accusations and assertions and allegations that have been made by Staff Sergeant Lewis. I think the process throughout, including this one and probably Mr. Day's independent process, has been to try to determine which of those accusations, assertions, and allegations are accurate. That is the process, and in fact, that is the process that's being followed here.

So I come back to the fact that if you are asking me whether I was dismayed that a member of the House would stand up.... And you must keep in mind that this was at the same time, Mr. Chair, that in question period, on a regular basis--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Point of order. I have a point of order.