Public Accounts Committee on April 30th, 2007

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'll call the meeting to order. I would ask that all cameras leave the room, please.

I'd like to welcome everybody here. Bienvenue à tous.

We have a full lineup this afternoon, colleagues. I'll introduce the witnesses who are before us. Back with us we have Deputy Commissioner Barbara George; we have the assistant commissioner for technical operations with the RCMP, Assistant Commissioner Bruce Rogerson; again, Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay, who has been with us many times before; Staff Sergeant Mike Frizzell; criminal operations officer Doug Lang, now stationed in Winnipeg; and Denise Revine, a public service employee.

As individuals we have Rosalie Burton, former director general of human resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police; retired inspector Paul Roy of the Ottawa Police Service; Normand Sirois, a retired member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, of CSIS; and Keith Estabrooks, a retired sergeant of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

Mr. Williams, you have a point of order.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Chairman, we just can't handle this number of witnesses on a regular basis. In fact, I'm getting so squished here that if we squish any more I'll be sitting on your lap pretty soon, and I'm not sure I would like that very much.

I think we have to get a handle as a steering committee on witnesses who we can question adequately, then moving on to the next witness. To have a dozen people being questioned by a dozen people in two hours makes no sense whatsoever. I ask you as chair to make sure this doesn't happen again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Williams, I agree with you 100%; however, I can explain why it happens. It's because people make motions at the end of meetings, they get consent, and the motions are approved, and that's why they're here. I would prefer that those matters be left to the steering committee for determination and decision, but the committee has decided otherwise, and that's why they're here.

I agree with what you're saying 100%, and perhaps the next time somebody makes a motion, you or some other member of the committee might want to consider that.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'll just go on the record that the next time this committee asks for more witnesses, I will automatically deny consent. Not that I'm trying to obstruct it, but I want the steering committee to handle it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

That's good, Mr. Williams. I'm glad to hear it.

There are a number of witnesses who have opening statements; however, I have a few statements I want to make myself. They concern the application in the Federal Court of Canada trial division being made by Deputy Commissioner Barbara George. It involves the privileges of this House. It's an application that certainly concerns this committee, and it's one we're following very closely.

I would like to make a statement at this time pertaining to the legal privileges that apply to the hearings of this particular committee and all committees of Parliament.

In particular, I want to affirm on behalf of this committee that this committee insists on its parliamentary privileges; in particular, that testimony provided to this committee is not available for use in any other proceedings or actions elsewhere. It is of considerable concern to the committee that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police has commenced internal disciplinary proceedings as well as a criminal investigation for perjury against former RCMP Deputy Commissioner Barbara George, who has been and continues to be a witness before this committee. Our concern here is not limited to this witness, but applies to all witnesses who come before this committee.

We understand that these actions by the RCMP against former Deputy Commissioner George are based on testimony she has given to this committee. This, colleagues, is contrary to the law of parliamentary privilege and is not acceptable.

It is important that all witnesses before this committee be assured that the testimony they give to this committee cannot be used elsewhere against them. The credibility given to witness testimony and to this committee's proceedings as a result will be seriously compromised if witnesses can be intimidated by actions taken against them or by worries about actions that could be taken against them.

If the committee so instructs, I shall immediately convey these concerns by letter to interim RCMP Commissioner Busson and ask that she expressly assure this committee, by return letter, that the testimony of any individual before this committee, whether or not an employee of the RCMP, will not be used in any proceedings or action against the individual.

Those are some comments I'm going to make.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, I would move, consistent with the statement you just read, that the letter you refer to be sent on behalf of this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay. Let's deal with that immediately.

Does he have unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

(Motion agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

The letter will be out today.

Mr. Williams, you had a point.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Yes, Mr. Chairman.

In view of the fact that this investigation is ongoing as we speak and has not been terminated, or we haven't heard back from Commissioner Busson, I would therefore think it only appropriate that we ask Ms. Barbara George to step down from being a witness at this committee today, until we have this matter resolved. I do not think it's appropriate that she be asked questions here today, in light of what is going on in other venues, until these are stopped. I would therefore move that she be asked to withdraw.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Well, Mr. Williams, if I may speak to that, it's entirely up to the committee to decide, but I would certainly caution the committee against going down that road, because if this were to be the case, any witness who made an application would be excused from appearing or testifying before this committee.

The rule of sub judice does not apply to parliamentary committee proceedings, and the law of parliamentary privilege is clear and I believe is well understood. I don't see any real reason why she should step down from appearing before this committee.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Chairman—

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

But, again, if I may continue, Mr. Williams, it is up to the committee.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Well, that's my point; it's up to the committee to decide.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Yes, that's right; it's up to the committee to decide, not me.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I made a motion that she should be asked to withdraw.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Does Mr. Williams have unanimous consent to put the motion?

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Chairman, it can't require unanimous consent, because it would be 48 hours before we could discuss it, and she's sitting right at the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Christopherson, do you want to speak to this?

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I would like to, Chair.

For the benefit of Mr. Williams and other members of the committee, the subcommittee met today at noon, which we have taken to doing and will continue to do every week while we're continuing these hearings to try to orchestrate all of this.

At that meeting we had Mr. Walsh, the parliamentary law clerk, and his senior assistant Mr. Tardi, who gave us a fulsome presentation, and we had a chance to ask questions. It's not just coincidental that the letter that was just read is being forwarded to the RCMP commissioner.

For what it's worth, we—one of us from each party—collectively have satisfied ourselves that we are in a strong enough position, and for the reasons the chair has outlined and others, our recommendation is that we are clear to go and that we should continue with today's hearings, including hearing Ms. George.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

However, it's a committee decision, not my decision, so I'm prepared to put it to a vote.

(Motion negatived)

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I have another issue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay, Mr. Williams.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Yes, I have another issue, Mr. Chairman, and again it's what I consider a serious matter.

I understand that some lawsuits have been commenced by a witness against one of the members of this committee, and it seems to me there could be a conflict of interest in a member of this committee asking questions of someone who has launched a lawsuit against them.

I thought our law clerk was going to be here today and we could ask his opinion.