Evidence of meeting #53 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
That's what I believe. It's Deputy Commissioner Gauvin, but, yes, there were suggestions made.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Ms. Revine, Ms. Burton said you received a work stop adjustment. I think that's either a compensation or some kind of formality about whatever it is when your position is terminated. Did you receive that?
Public Service Employee, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I received that on April 22, 2004.
Conservative
Public Service Employee, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Immediately, basically no management meetings. She took the work away and told me to focus on finding a job.
Conservative
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Mr. Estabrooks, you mentioned documents were removed from the files in your office, the office in which you worked. You've no idea who removed these documents?
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Ms. Burton, I'm going back to Mr. Fitzpatrick's point, and the chair also asked you some questions on this in your testimony on April 18, when Mr. Fitzpatrick was trying to find out what relationship or what connection or interviews or discussions you'd had with Staff Sergeant Frizzell. I know it was a heated interchange, but nonetheless the question was if you found the investigation harassing when he questioned you, and you replied, “He did not interview me as a witness, sir”.
In your opening statement today you made reference to the fact that you talked to Staff Sergeant Frizzell on quite a number of occasions, I believe, and now we understand one was actually with a tape recording of three hours.
At this committee you're required to give fulsome answers. Do you believe “He did not interview me as a witness, sir” was a fulsome answer as far as your interaction with Staff Sergeant Frizzell on this case?
former Director general of Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I answered that I did not believe he interviewed me as a witness because I initiated that conversation.
Conservative
former Director general of Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I guess I misunderstood what constitutes witness.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
You weren't asked about being a witness. You volunteered the fact that you weren't interviewed as a witness. Mr. Fitzpatrick said, “Did you find the investigation harassing when he was questioning you”? You have said today you had a number of conversations with Staff Sergeant Frizzell. You were the one who brought in the concept that he did not interview you as a witness My question to you was, “Did you give us a fulsome answer?”
former Director general of Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Thank you, and I note your concern, very much so.
The first thing is that when I read that transcript, I noted that I didn't answer directly yes or no. First, I did not find my interactions with....
No, I need to clear this up, Mr. Chair.
I did not find my interactions with Mike Frizzell harassing. Second, I initiated the conversation. He came to see me. After we talked for a while, he asked if he could record. We had a taped conversation. I was not advised I was a witness or anything else.
So maybe it's my not understanding the semantics of the situation, and I'll apologize for that.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I asked, Mr. Chairman, if that was a fulsome answer that she gave. I didn't ask for the context.
Did you give us a fulsome answer at that time?
former Director general of Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
In retrospect, I guess I could have been more fulsome.
Liberal
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My question is for Ms. Burton. In answer to a question by Mr. Williams, you said that you had a three-hour, recorded conversation, but that you did not believe you were being interviewed as a witness.
It is very hard for me to understand that, but that is not what I want to question you about. Rather, I would like to come back to something you said on April 18, mainly:
On September 11, 2003 or before, when I had not yet been appointed acting director general, 12 employees were declared surplus, including Denise Revine, towards whom [...]
Did the 12 employees who were declared surplus all work in your department?
former Director general of Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I'm sorry, I can only speak to the ones in my department. It was the budget file that I inherited from the executive assistant of my predecessor, Fraser Macaulay. I brought the documentation that I had that prefaced that decision. So I'm not sure. I recall in the file there were other areas that were subject to cuts, but I did not follow that closely.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
How many were there in your department?
former Director general of Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
There were 12 in my area, sir.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
That's what I asked you. I asked you whether the 12 employees worked in your department.
You said that you were appointed acting director general, that you did not look at the files of those 12 people and that your predecessor did not tell you why these people were being laid off and considered surplus.
former Director general of Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
The file contains a memorandum from the deputy commissioner of the chief financial officer, Paul Gauvin, to the chief human resource officer, indicating a $1.3 million shortfall for fiscal year 2004-2005. Also in there is a file that was prepared on or before September 11, 2003, regarding cuts to be made that impact individuals. I received that file from the executive assistant, Lise Bisson, who worked for Fraser Macaulay. In the handover meeting that I asked Fraser Macaulay for, he did not indicate or provide me an explanation of that.
