Public Accounts Committee on April 30th, 2007

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

In summary, you are saying that you did not know how the decision was taken. You confirm that there were budget cuts, and that for you this was simply a budget matter, it was not a human matter. As the human resources director, you blindly made the cuts, you did not ask any questions, you said thank you and goodbye. That's basically what you're telling me.

[Rosalie Burton]

No, there was absolutely a humane response to that. While people receive the workforce adjustment letter, they're still on full salary. They're advised that their first priority is finding their next position. While they're still on full salary, we do everything we can to accommodate them. I facilitated discussions with Assistant Commissioner Kevin Mole for meaningful work for Denise Revine and the other employees.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I'm sorry, but that was not my question. As human resources director, you had to implement a decision which had been taken with regard to your department. So you had to act accordingly. Do you have a say in your budget?

Perhaps you did not make the decision, but you did have a say in your departmental budget. It's as if you're telling us that the human resources director had nothing to say, that a decision had been made, thank you and goodbye.

[Rosalie Burton]

You're provided a budget, but how you allocate that.... If there weren't cuts there, there would be cuts elsewhere. If it's not those twelve employees, which eight or twelve salaries add up to the amount you need to reduce by?

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Did you go and see whether cuts were made elsewhere? Did you see whether the cuts in your department were justified?

If I was the director of a service and I was told that 12 positions would be cut, I would not say well, too bad, cuts happen everywhere. I would ask myself serious questions and I would see if cuts were actually being made elsewhere as well. I would want to know how the decision was taken, who ordered the cutbacks in my department without my having a say in the matter or without my being allowed to voice my opinion. That's what you're telling me.

If 12 further positions were cut, would you still say nothing? Would you say, Ms. Burton, that cutbacks were happening elsewhere and that it wasn't really serious?

[Rosalie Burton]

Oh no, this is a very serious thing. This is people's livelihood. It's not a decision that's taken lightly, and there are other areas that are cut or cut back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Before we go to Mr. Sweet, I have one quick question to you, Staff Sargeant Macaulay.

We heard the story about Rosalie Burton inheriting this budget deficit from her predecessor. Her predecessor, I understand, was you, and that's the reason why Ms. Revine lost her job. Is that correct?

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

Ms. Revine was never workforce-adjusted under my tenure, under my time there.

The meeting Ms. Burton is referring to probably lasted less than four minutes. She arrived at the meeting place, and Lise Bisson was there with me. Regarding the first matter we started talking about, she advised me that she couldn't tell me anything. She had been advised that everything was secret. I said thank you very much and I got up and left the room.

Ms. Revine was an HR planner. We were bringing planners in. She was involved with Treasury Board around the HR planning. It wasn't a position to be eliminated at that time in our history.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Sweet, you have five minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I share your concern around this 33 years of service. Could you please tell the committee, Ms. Revine, that the diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder came directly from this instance?

[Denise Revine]

It came. It's been four years. There was a sick leave absence, and then I came back to work. Then, as others have, I've been consumed with the file. It's a very big and complicated file. I maintain the other job now through home, and I have a big family, so eventually it takes its toll.

When I came back to work, I wanted to come to work. We had a meeting with Deputy Commissioner George. Ron Lewis attended the meeting with me. Deputy Commissioner George would have liked me to retire. I wasn't prepared to retire. They didn't have anything to offer me. I had to find my own job. I even had to go to a lawyer. It's an accumulation.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

Staff Sergeant Frizzell, did the insurance committee minutes show that approval had been given to move $540,000 to the pension fund, as Barb George requested, from Great-West Life?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

The minutes show that they did have authority.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Why is there the discrepancy then between that and what Rosalie Burton has testified?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

I don't know.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Ms. Burton, did you or anyone under your direction change the minutes of an insurance committee meeting to indicate that the approval had been given to return funds to the pension fund when no such approval had been given?

[Rosalie Burton]

I did not change any minutes, and I do not know of anyone who did change minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

You have no knowledge of that whatsoever?

[Rosalie Burton]

What I do know is that several months ago a gentleman named Gary Roy came to me and said, “The reps are biting me because of the minutes of the meeting.” I said to him, “Did you follow due process?” There's a process for any minutes of meetings: they're drafted, they're sent out for comments and revisions, and then they're published as final. He said, “Yes.” Then I said, “Well, that was the opportunity to look at the minutes.”

I wasn't overly concerned. That's what I know about minutes of meetings, sir.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Staff Sergeant Frizzell, you've testified in the past that Rosalie Burton and Barbara George were persons of interest in this investigation. Is that correct?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

Yes, they were people we needed more information from.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Monsieur Roy, Rosalie Burton mentioned that you contacted her, even though she's not a uniformed member of the RCMP. In her opening remarks, she mentioned that you gave her quite a detailed outline of the investigation and where it was at, and she even criticized the behaviour of one of your colleagues. Could you explain that to us, please?

[Paul Roy]

First of all, I never contacted Ms. Rosalie Burton. This is in my notes.

I did a submission. At tab 12, I have my notes from June 7 on the call that I received from Ms. Burton, who complained about the behaviour of Sergeant Mike Frizzell. I can read my notes. They're very short.

She said she had received several complaints that he had seen some of her people, such as DG Caron, on complaints and dispute issues as a member of the RCMP, as opposed to being impartial, as an investigator should be. She said he requested a meeting with her, which is set for June 17.

At that point, I explained I was not aware of this, and if it were the case he'd be doing this on his own, not as a representative of this investigation.

I further explained that we are in a report-writing phase, which will be presented to the commissioner and then to the senior executive committee on June 27. Our findings will be presented and the RCMP will then be seized with taking action.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

What was your reason for giving that much detail of the situation at that moment in the report to Ms. Burton?

[Paul Roy]

I'm sorry, can you repeat that?