Evidence of meeting #57 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
They definitely would have had a lot of information from Public Works, because they operated the pension before--
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
6:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
I remember all of it, yes.
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
So you had people come in from Public Works to the committee?
6:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
No, they didn't come to the committee, but they certainly would have been working with NCPC at the time.
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
All right. But you sat in with this with Morneau Sobeco, but you don't remember anybody else giving any information.
6:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
No, not--
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
What I'm trying to get at, sir, is that the Ottawa Police Service specifically pointed out that your committee was a review committee but actually gave authorization to act when it came to contracts. I have a big concern around that.
6:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
That's not accurate, sir.
NCPC, as a responsibility centre and responsible for pension administration, had the authority to do this work. In fact, it was their responsibility to do this work. It was this proposal to outsource the pension fund. The pension administration, did it come to the executive committee? Yes. Did it come to the pension advisory committee? Yes. There was no reason not to.
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Mr. Gauvin, you said you got a legal opinion that you couldn't charge the money to the pension fund and you couldn't charge it to appropriations, so there was nowhere else, it had to be charged to the insurance. Did you agree that was a legitimate charge to the insurance?
6:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
It was to administer insurance, and we--
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
No, I said do you, as the CFO, believe that was a legitimate charge?
6:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Without any other option, yes.
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
No, I didn't say any other option. I know you say you had no choice, but did you agree that it was a legitimate charge for the insurance?
6:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Yes.
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Okay. Now, I think you've just said that since then the Treasury Board has refunded the money. Am I correct in saying that?
6:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
No. I was talking about the pension. On the pension, as I mentioned to Ms. Sgro, we now are even in that account. Any charges that were made there have either been reimbursed or reversed.
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
6:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Some of the money came from appropriations, some from Public Works.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
As the CFO of the RCMP, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Gauvin has pointed out that he didn't know about this, didn't know about that, didn't know about the next thing, but now we have these checks and balances in place, so now the committee, these senior officers, are fully informed about contracting policies being followed through and so on.
It seems a little like the audit committee at Hollinger, Mr. Chairman, where they really weren't paying too much attention.
Now, as the CFO, Mr. Gauvin, why were you not ensuring that the checks and balances were there so you could assure yourself they were done properly? I presume you were signing off on the financial statements.
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you, Mr. Williams.
We'll allow you an explanation, Mr. Gauvin. Go ahead.
6:10 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
That is a totally unfair question, sir. If you read the Auditor General's report closely, the Auditor General says there is nothing wrong with the control framework, that things were there. The problem is that people deliberately went around the controls, and when they do that, you can't find it at the same time.
6:10 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
From one auditor to another, there's a disagreement here.
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you, Mr. Williams, and thank you, Mr. Gauvin.
Point of order, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.
6:10 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Chair, approximately a month ago, when he appeared here, I'd requested that Mr. Crupi provide his reference letters that allowed him to gain employment at that time at the Communications Security Establishment. Last week he wrote a couple of names by hand, but do we finally have the actual reference letters he was obligated to provide us?