Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2007

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Could I ask that Assistant Commissioner Corrigan be brought to the front?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We will swear in Assistant Commissioner Corrigan.

[Bernie Corrigan, As an Individual]

I, Mr. Bernie Corrigan, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Lavoie, we'd heard previously from Mr. Gauvin that he had no line authority and did not interfere. Yet in your testimony during the last round, towards the end, you'd said that Mr. McConnell, the same assistant of Mr. Gauvin who previously had told you the report should not be released, when you were intending to release it, arrived at your door and you said was wagging his finger and telling you not to release it.

Did I mishear you or misunderstand you?

[Supt Pierre Lavoie]

Yes, you did.

As I indicated before, on the 21st I was told that this report should not be released, for the reasons we heard. My comment to Mr. McConnell was that there was no way this report was not going to be released; that we were taking into account the concerns they had, but that the report had to go.

I described the subsequent steps. On the fifth, when push came to shove, so to speak, when subpoenas were being issued or there was talk about their being issued from the Information Commissioner's office, I sent an e-mail to Mr. Gauvin with a copy to Mr. McConnell to be sure Mr. Gauvin got it, and that's when Mr. McConnell came up wondering what this was all about.

This was my decision all along. Theirs were only recommendations, and it was my decision to make, after all. I'm sorry, I had not felt at that time that it was my decision to make. I was intent on making it, but I had to take proper steps to be—

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Gauvin, I'm having a hard time matching those circumstances with your previous statements that at no point did you interfere. Did you instruct Mr. McConnell to head over to Mr. Lavoie's office to try to prevent the release of this report?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I'm as confused as you are. Basically, my only role was that I was asked for an opinion. I gave that opinion, and that was it.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So who would have instructed your assistant, Mr. McConnell? We now know that you had one assistant going to the ATIP section just to get the names of the documents. You have another assistant going to Mr. Lavoie's office, shaking his finger. Who would be giving all these assistants instructions? Who gave Mr. McConnell the instruction?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I didn't even know that Mr. McConnell went to ATIP.

Basically, we had no role to play. I don't know why he would have gone. It was up to ATIP to decide what they wanted to do. We had written our memo, we had done what we had to, and we had no other role in that situation.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Assistant Commissioner Corrigan, we heard quotes from a couple of memos, a memo in an A5 from Mr. Estabrooks making incredibly serious allegations, wouldn't you agree?

[Bernie Corrigan]

As far as the reference to the memos is concerned, I didn't become aware of that particular information until preparing for this committee appearance. I had some discussions with Superintendent Lavoie shortly after the Gauvin memo, I believe on the 21st. I asked Mr. Estabrooks to send the file back to legal service for a final review.

It certainly was my position that this document was going to go out, and going to go out forthwith. I met, as I mentioned, with Superintendent Lavoie and I fully supported him in his decision to release this information. We discussed the concerns around the personal information that was within that particular document itself, as well as any potential impact the release might have upon the internal investigation that was ongoing. This particular document dealt with the criminal investigation, not the internal investigation.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Now, looking at these particular quotes, I would have expected that it would have been much earlier, and not only after the parliamentary committee made these documents public, that you would have been aware of such concerns.

Does it concern you that when the officer who was preparing the access to information documents would have made allegations of this sort--these are serious allegations--that the information would not have gotten to you?

[Bernie Corrigan]

Well, again, the conversations that I had with Superintendent Lavoie were around the frustration with getting this thing moved forward. As I stated, I was fully supportive of his position on this. What we did discuss, as a final step, was identifying those individuals who were part of the criminal investigation, those individuals who were named in the internal investigation, so that the reviewers could have some reference.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

How long did Mr. Alberti of legal services sit on these access to information files?

[Bernie Corrigan]

It is my understanding now, after reviewing material, that it was about three and a half or four months.

[Keith Estabrooks]

Five months.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

How long would that have been, and would that have been normal for something like this--a document of 50-odd pages?

[Bernie Corrigan]

Well, again, I can't speak to legal services.

[Keith Estabrooks]

I'm sorry, was the question directed to me or to...?

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Yes, it was a question to establish how long the documents were sat on and whether that would be a normal set of circumstances.

[Keith Estabrooks]

It went to Alberti's office for the first round on October 13, 2005. It was returned mid-March 2006, and it went back on March 21, I believe, and then it was actually mailed out on April 26 of 2006. So for five months or close to five months, it sat there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Estabrooks.

Mr. Sweet, you have five minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Spice, it's good to see you. You've been mentioned so much, I'm glad to finally see you in the flesh here.

You mentioned a poison environment that people had to work in. How much of this circumstance that we're investigating right now—the nepotism, the contracting, the pension insurance outsourcing—played into that poison atmosphere?

[A/Commr John Spice]

Do you mean for the purpose of this audit that was conducted? All of it would.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

All of it would. So this was a substantial amount of the poison atmosphere that was in the RCMP at that time. Is that correct?