Evidence of meeting #65 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gauvin.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michel Joyal  As an Individual
Keith Estabrooks  As an Individual
Ian Cowan  Inspector, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Louis Alberti  Legal Services, Department of Justice, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Paul Gauvin  Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Christian Picard  Superintendent, former Officer in charge of the Access to information and Privacy, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Pierre Lavoie  Superintendent (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Paul McConnell  Inspector, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

3:55 p.m.

Legal Services, Department of Justice, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Louis Alberti

I quickly read the file, I looked at it in detail and I consulted with my office colleagues during that period. As I advanced in my work—not the work of an analyst, such as Mr. Estabrooks—I identified the facts and the legal principles involved and transmitted them to the coordinator of general principles. I never worked as an analyst, that was not my job. However, as the request was being processed, new facts which were very important and very relevant came to light, which ended up changing the very nature of the documents I was working on.

It is not unusual, in cases involving litigation, to receive access to information requests. At the time, the Access to Information Office was processing between 60 and 80 cases which exclusively concerned access requests. So we had to set priorities. For example, in cases involving a judicial review, certain deadlines must be met, and in cases involving litigation, we have to produce factums.

I find it rather unfortunate that a former member of the RCMP took advantage of his parliamentary immunity to make this kind of allegation which causes prejudice, which affects my reputation and that of the Department of Justice.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick

We have to move to Mr. Williams. We have a tight schedule.

Thank you very much, Mr. Laforest.

Mr. Williams, you can start. The clock is ticking.

June 11th, 2007 / 3:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Gauvin, when you were here before, you were telling us about Mr. Crupi and how you found he wasn't doing things within the rules and, in fact, he was breaking the rules of contracting. Rather than firing him, you sent somebody over to keep an eye on him. You were asked how much contracting authority Mr. Crupi had and you said $50,000 or $100,000, you weren't exactly sure.

Do you still stand by the $50,000 or $100,000 limit?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Paul Gauvin

No, after I checked, it was a lot less than that.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

How much was it?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Paul Gauvin

I think it was around—I forget—around $5,000 or $10,000.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

You still don't know?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Paul Gauvin

Anything else had to go through the contracting shop.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

I'm very concerned about this, Mr. Gauvin. Have you ever fired anybody else for fraud or corruption, in your career?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Paul Gauvin

My whole career? Yes.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

You have, okay.

Mr. Crupi was messing around with the contracting. You were aware of that and you were the CFO. Why didn't you fire him?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Paul Gauvin

I explained that before, sir.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

No, you didn't explain it. You just said you sent somebody over to keep an eye on him. How did you send this guy over to keep an eye on him?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Paul Gauvin

First of all, I mentioned before that Mr. Crupi didn't work for me. He worked for HR.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

We know that, but you sent somebody over. You didn't fire him. You didn't send a report to somebody to say they should fire the guy because he's corrupt. You said you were going to put somebody to watch over him. What kind of idea is this, to put somebody to watch over somebody for breaking the rules?

4 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Paul Gauvin

Okay, there are two points.

First of all, he was breaking the rules, yes, and we wanted to stop him so we put somebody in there. But he still insisted on doing what he wanted to do, so then we took his authority away. By doing that, his manager should have then taken the action that he should have taken. But I want to tell you that to fire somebody in the government is not that simple. You just don't say, “I want to fire you.”

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

So how many other people have you sent down to supervise those who were breaking the rules?

4 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Paul Gauvin

Not very many.

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Any?

4 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Paul Gauvin

No, not that I recall.

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

So this is the first one.

4 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

You knew the guy was breaking the rules. You didn't even know how much contracting authority he had, according to your statement. You seem to have done no investigation whatsoever on this guy. He's spending RCMP money, which you're responsible for, and you seem to take it rather blithely and nonchalantly to send a guy to supervise.

How many reports did you get on Mr. Crupi?

4 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

D/Commr Paul Gauvin

I think they did one report. But the issue there was—

4 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Was the report good, bad, or indifferent?