Evidence of meeting #65 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gauvin.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
You would have been aware of the financial overruns and the problems that were developing, because you were on the advisory group that was dealing with this issue.
5:10 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
We knew it was costing more, and I explained that. We were also implementing Bill C-78. The records were in very poor shape. We had 40,000 files that had to be corrected. That's where a lot of the money went.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
On a related issue, there were moneys moved out of the pension fund to help shore up the insurance thing at different stages. Being a member of the pension advisory group, you would have been aware of those issues as well.
5:10 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Absolutely not, sir. That was done in a totally deceitful way. We had to have an internal audit to bring that out. As soon as we did, we took action on that part. If you look at the last meeting you had, I think you'll come to the conclusion that there was a lot of deceit among people in that organization, including collusion.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
5:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to move back to where I was. It's not that this isn't an excellent line of questioning, but I want to finish off.
We've already had testimony—This would be Mr. Estabrooks saying in an A5:
I can see no reason why it has taken months for Louis Alberti to give us a legal opinion. Are we assisting in some sort of cover up...?
Later that day, which was May 14, Superintendent Lavoie said:
On March 21, when this was happening, at that point I thought that this was going to be something that down the road I was going to have to be able to explain, in terms of what happened. From that point on, I made copious notes as to what transpired.
I don't think there can be any doubt that something was going on. Something was not right. Early on, you had two key players identifying in writing that they quite frankly needed to cover their asses.
That's my ramp-up to the quote I read earlier.
I'm going to read it again. It's brief. This is from Mr. Estabrooks:
It is my opinion that Mr. Gauvin is in a direct conflict of interest by having anything to do with the release of our proposed package as he is a key player in the pension matter. Just the fact that he has access to the documents is a conflict and unethical. Therefore, I leave it in your hands to report this to the Ethics Commissioner ASAP.
Mr. Estabrooks, do you want to add anything at all, or explain anything about that? Clearly it was not your decision to make, but in your opinion, it was not appropriate that Mr. Gauvin was having involvement—That's basically the essence of your statement to this committee. Actually, that was a memo you sent to Mr. Lavoie. Is that correct?
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
That was in a memo that was sent to Superintendent Lavoie. That's not the other A5 about the cover-up question.
June 11th, 2007 / 5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
It's the way the words are being sort of changed—I said, “are we”; I didn't say, “we are”. You have to be careful how you word that.
5:10 p.m.
As an Individual
No, no. When I wrote the A5--the handwritten one to Superintendent Lavoie--I thought I was doing the proper thing, because Superintendent Lavoie was my boss; my job as a senior NCO was to protect Superintendent Lavoie. I was hoping that when he read this, it would give him an idea of what could happen and that something would be done. This was by no means to go after Superintendent Lavoie. It was my idea to assist. But maybe some people are taking it the wrong way.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
Order.
I think Louis Alberti wanted to add something to this conversation. Did you, sir?
5:10 p.m.
Legal Services, Department of Justice, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I just wanted to add—
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
We'll keep your time separate. But maybe it's pertinent.
5:10 p.m.
Legal Services, Department of Justice, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
You made a fairly serious allegation that there was a cover-up. As far as that is concerned, legal services had nothing to do with what has been called stalling tactics. Legal Services were in no way involved—directly or indirectly—in stalling tactics or in a cover-up. I don't know why—
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
You made that point before, Mr. Alberti.
We'll get back to Mr. Christopherson's line of questioning.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It's not an allegation, sir. I was reading from the testimony that has already been given here at the committee.
5:10 p.m.
Legal Services, Department of Justice, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I just wanted to clarify the matter, since the RCMP Legal Services have been implicated.
You quoted from a document. Consequently, I at least want to—
5:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Believe me, there are a lot of people who want access here to clear their name. I appreciate that, sir.
Mr. Lavoie, when you received that, what did you do with it?
5:10 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Sorry, the memo from Mr. Estabrooks where he was raising a concern that Mr. Gauvin was in a direct conflict of interest. What did you do with it?
5:10 p.m.
Superintendent (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I've already testified that I told him I disagreed with him. The issue was about the release of the report. I was basing my judgment that this was not an ethical issue on my policing and training background. It was an access to information and release of the report issue. I told him I would take care of it.
As a result, I went to see Mr. Estabrooks. I asked him to give me the file folder, to keep track of the stuff that was going to follow to see that the report was released.