Evidence of meeting #66 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
How would you know that Public Works...that this would have cost $70 million?
5 p.m.
As an Individual
I was provided information from somebody who works in NCPC that the first estimates that came out of Public Works were over $70 million. And that's just recently.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
The next question is one that I want clarification on, and I want your response to it too.
Mr. Gauvin has told this committee that he took away your contracting power and he also even had a supervisor in there. The way I understand it, he says that you got seconded into Public Works Canada and these $6 million worth of contracts that went out to Abotech and Casey Computers and so on, these were all things that were done entirely under your watch through Public Works Canada, and he knew nothing about that.
I think you've mentioned before that you would have thought Mr. Gauvin would have known something about that. I'd like to get your thoughts on that matter today. Would Mr. Gauvin have known about your activities in being involved in the awarding of these contracts?
5:05 p.m.
As an Individual
He would have because I had told him. The timing of when I told him, I can't honestly tell you, but he was aware that we were using CAC. He said, “Good. They are a procurement arm. They handle all procurement processes. All you write are statements of work. That's fine.”
As far as doing something without his knowledge, I believe the first memorandum of understanding we had done because we thought we could do it without going through procurement. Procurement told us we couldn't, so they went back and redid and rejigged everyone and re-signed everyone through his procurement advisers. So it would have moved forward.
The other thing is that for CAC to take payment, something would have had to be set up in the financial system for CAC to put a charge against it. I couldn't do that. Only financial people could set up a charge—
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
There is just one last question that I want clarity on.
The sign-off on this, you said there are five or six different people who had to sign these things as they moved up the chain. You were the first one to sign—
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
If you weren't happy with what you were doing, you wouldn't sign that, would you?
5:05 p.m.
As an Individual
If I wasn't happy with the work that was being described in that document, I would have said no, we don't need to do this work.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
So by signing it you gave it your blessing as it moved up the chain?
5:05 p.m.
As an Individual
But I wasn't signing that the procurement rules were being followed. That was procurement signing that.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
But you were giving your blessings to the people on those contracts?
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Mr. Chair, I would just like to table before the committee an RCMP financial coding N2020-474, funding of $2,527,623.16. It has been approved by “Approval of Contract Services, Insurance Committee and Pension Advisory Committee”. The first signature is Dominic Crupi. The second signature is Superintendent Yves Bouchard. The third signature is Mr. Ewanovich. The fourth signature is a director; it looks like Mr. Guy Rochette.
I would like to table these documents.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Brian Fitzpatrick
Okay. That's probably a document that's quite relevant. Thank you very much for tabling that document, Mr. Williams.
We're going to move on to Ms. Sgro.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Thank you.
It's tough following Mr. Williams and you; you managed to ask every question I have on my sheet.
Mr. Crupi, we've had Mr. Gauvin, deputy commissioners, and very senior people here, including Deputy Commissioner Barb George. They've clearly indicated that you and Mr. Ewanovich were in collusion in this whole pension issue. They've said it straight out. There were no criminal charges laid simply because they didn't have 100% evidence at the time, and the time ran out.
What do you say to those comments that were made here at this committee? They weren't made just once. They've been made many times.
5:05 p.m.
As an Individual
First of all, as far as the time running out, that was after the criminal investigation had been closed down. That was in fact the internal investigation where the time ran out. The criminal investigation was finished and closed.
As far as collusion with Mr. Ewanovich, he was the chair of the pension committee. He would give direction in terms of certain things he wanted done and seen. That's it. I don't know where this collusion issue comes from. We were just trying to put in the best pension administration we could for the RCMP.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
In the Ottawa Police Service report, you indicated that after reviewing the options Mr. Crupi decided that any legitimate process would take too long and that he might have to compete the actual underwriting as well. Why did you make those comments?
5:05 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't remember making those comments. That might be the opinion of Mr. Frizzell. My understanding of what took place at that time--again, I don't remember making those comments--was that Great-West Life told us that they could finish off what they had committed to do after x years of doing work. They had proposed to me that they could do anything they could to help. I asked what they could do. They suggested that they could get a subcontractor; they could look into getting a subcontractor. I said to look into it.
I then advised Mr. Roy and Mr. Casey to do a business case, because if they didn't get the subcontractor, we'd be stuck at the same place again, without options for the insurance committee. That's why they finished off their business case, even though they were going down a road to move to going to a subcontractor.
I made it very clear that I was not going to direct anyone as to which subcontractor they should use.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Before I go to Mr. Foley, Mr. Frizzell, do you have any comments on what you've just heard?
5:10 p.m.
S/Sgt Mike Frizzell
All the evidence I saw was exactly contrary to what Mr. Crupi just said. Great-West Life may have said that they were sure that Morneau Sobeco could do it, but I saw no evidence that Great-West Life sought out Morneau Sobeco. All the evidence pointed to, and I believe the testimony we've heard today even reaffirms it, that the deals were made between NCPC and Morneau Sobeco. Great-West Life came into the circle later.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON
Mr. Foley, how were you able to be convinced to be the go-between for payments for Morneau Sobeco?