Evidence of meeting #70 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was service.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:45 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have a quick question for the Auditor General. I notice that most of the ratings on this one indicate satisfactory progress. Can you define what satisfactory progress means?
3:50 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you.
We rate progress based upon the complexity of the issue and the actions that are required to address a recommendation. It's all in relation to recommendations made in previous audits. It's the complexity of the issue and the time elapsed.
I would point out that in this particular case, the follow-up was done very quickly after the original audit—about a year and a half before we had to make that assessment.
While many of the issues will require a much longer period of time, particularly data access from the provinces and territories, we saw good indication that Passport Canada addressed many of the issues that we felt could be addressed rapidly. That's why we do that assessment based on complexity and time elapsed.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
My next question is for Mr. Edwards.
Just to give you a little bit of a heads up about where I'm from, I'm from northern Ontario. To get to a passport office is quite far.
I want to compliment your staff. They've been very cooperative. They've been very helpful. But they've also been overwhelmed and overworked. I think through no fault of their own the service has been lacking in the last, probably, nine months or so, ever since everything started picking up. It was like watching a train wreck happen in slow motion. Everything was just kind of happening. You knew it was coming; you just couldn't do anything about it. I couldn't, in any case. I was hoping someone at Passport Canada would have.
This is a quote I wrote down while you were speaking. You said that Canadians are expecting quality service at a reasonable price. You also mentioned expanding your reach to different regions. Again, I'm from northern Ontario. We don't have any passport offices. The nearest one is in Toronto, which is about three and a half or four hours away. Ottawa is about the same. To the west is Thunder Bay, which is about a 19-hour drive from where I am.
You talk about a reasonable price. Now, it costs money—in travel, in time taken off, in lost wages—when people have to get a passport done in a hurry or when they want to go to a passport office. Can you tell me what you're doing to improve that or what I can expect to see in my riding over the next little while? It's Nipissing—Timiskaming. It's in North Bay, Ontario, and in Haileybury, on the Timiskaming shores.
3:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Thank you for your question.
I can't answer the question with respect to your riding in particular. Maybe one of my colleagues can.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
It's on outreach in general, because I know my riding is like many other ridings that are not serviced.
3:50 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Yes.
Well, part of the plan the passport office has is to increase the use of service providers, such as Service Canada and the post office.
In the case of your constituents, for example, rather than going to a passport office, they could go to a post office or to a Service Canada outlet for over-the-counter service at the front end of the process. Service Canada would take the application, and after a document check and so forth, they would pass it on to the central offices, where it would be processed. So there would be no requirement to go to a passport office.
Mr. Cossette can comment in a little more detail. He's already taken some extensive steps to increase the number of those service points across the country. I'm not sure if any of those are in your constituency. As I said, we're prepared to check.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
There is one that's.... You can have it done at the post office. There's a $15 charge, however, which is not something that anybody else or any other constituent would have to pay in another riding. You talked about quality of service and reasonable price. All of a sudden, there's a surcharge. What ends up happening is that they come to my office, which is a constituency office, and we do it there instead.
Service Canada doesn't really do them, but Service Ontario, just outside my riding, in Sturgeon Falls, does do them. What happens is that all of a sudden, Service Ontario says they're doing this as a favour to Passport Canada and Service Canada, and they're going to limit it to those people from that riding only. As far as I'm concerned, Canadians or Ontarians should have the same service wherever they go. And that has been starting to show its head as well. It's not equal service. Some places are better served than others.
Is there any way of getting passports processed locally or of at least having it so we know when they're going to be issued?
3:55 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Maybe Mr. Cossette has more detailed information.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
I'd like to know what the plan is to round that up and make it....
June 20th, 2007 / 3:55 p.m.
Gérald Cossette Chief Executive Officer, Passport Canada
What we're doing right now is negotiating with Service Canada to expand the network itself. We're looking at 17 new locations where Service Canada would provide passport services. It's not only new locations; it's also more services.
Right now, Service Canada doesn't even do a pre-screening. They verify that the application is complete and that all the documents are included, and then they basically forward the whole application to Passport Canada.
In the future, what we would like them to do is a little bit more than that. They would not do the work that our entitlement officers do, for instance, which is approve applications, but they would at least look at more complex cases and be able to manage urgent demands, and so on.
When we talk about being closer to the applicants, we mean using partnerships with organizations that are already in the field to get closer to Canadians. And it's going to go in phases. The first thing was having 30 Passport Canada offices. We're up to 33. The second thing was to work with receiving agents. The first one was Canada Post. Now we have 100 Service Canada networks, and we're expanding the networks.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Obviously I'm not as confident in the Service Canada networks as you are. I have some concerns about them.
It was announced by Minister MacKay that there were going to be upwards of 500 new passport employees. What month did he announce this?
3:55 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Passport Canada
He announced that last winter in response to the surge at that moment.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
My understanding is that come May, the 500 weren't all working. Is that a false statement?
3:55 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Passport Canada
About 480 employees were recruited last winter and are working. We're going through a second hiring process.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Good afternoon.
Ms. Fraser, in your February report, you state that in 2005-06, over three million passports were issued. In your preamble, you also mentioned that Passport Canada had to deal with security, increased demand, and of course the budgetary aspect. In addition, the number of passports issued has increased significantly.
Do you have the impression that security standards were set aside or somehow compromised given that they absolutely had to respond to the demand?
3:55 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Our impression when we did the initial audit in 2005 was that Passport Canada had given priority to service issues rather than security issues. We noted several deficiencies concerning security issues and we made several recommendations so that improvements could be made in that area.
I think that our follow-up audit shows that Passport Canada did deal tentatively with these issues, implemented a very serious action plan and started to tackle these problems even though solving some of them will take some time. The question of electronic links with the provinces and territories, for example, cannot be solved in a few months. All risk analyses will also take some time. The same is true for the quality framework for decision management, namely who has the right to access and who shouldn't. That also takes some time and requires training.
Nevertheless, I think that with a few exceptions—for example, one would have thought that the problem of system access would have been solved—a very serious effort has been made in dealing with security.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
The fact remains that I detect from your response that security is not absolute.
3:55 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Indeed, security is not absolute. The problem with system access should have been solved in a year and a half, in our opinion. Yet, we noted that certain people still had complete access to the system whereas that should not have been the case.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
As a matter of fact, Mr. Edwards mentioned in his third point that there was an action plan seeking to correct that. I don't mean to lump Passport Canada together with all the other departments, but we do know that quite often, when you conduct an audit and action plans are proposed, years can pass before they' re really achieved. In some cases, it's never done. Often, there were good intentions expressed. In a case like this one, I presume that the people from Passport Canada will act quickly, or at least I hope so.
You raised the issue of links with the provinces. I think you were referring to British Columbia and Alberta. In terms of security, does the fact that other provinces, notably Quebec, are not yet in line with Passport Canada increase security problems?
4 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Of course, that makes the task of the examiners more difficult when they have to ensure that the applicant is really the person he claims to be, verify all the documents, ensure that the birth certificate among other things is valid. If there's an electronic link, it is easier. For instance, one can verify whether the person is deceased. I wouldn't say this necessarily decreases security but however, it can increase controls and system effectiveness.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
My next question is for Mr. Cossette.
In 2005, Passport Canada conducted a study to determine what repercussions should be anticipated if passport validity were to increase to 10 years. Recently, we received new documents indicating that passport renewal would be simplified. However, these documents did not specify whether the five-year renewal would be applied.
Have you examined the pros and cons of this issue? Are there advantages to having a 10-year passport? If not, is it preferable that it be five years?
4 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Passport Canada
We have not changed our minds about the validity of the passport. In our opinion, it should be valid for five years, for reasons related to security. It is much easier to integrate new technology as soon as it becomes available. It is also easier to update the document itself by changing its security components. And it makes it easier for border service officers to recognize the document. If a passport were good for 10 years, an officer would have to memorize all of the various iterations that have occurred during the past 10-year period.
