Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 6th, 2007

[John Spice]

Would I be willing to?

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Yes.

[John Spice]

I have not yet been asked, so I suppose it's moot. If I'm asked, I'll certainly be willing to speak to them.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Those are all the questions I have.

But I do reiterate that when I read the Brown report, I think the emphasis is on systemic change. There are problems in the culture and the governance of this organization, and they're well on the road to getting at the defects in that structure and addressing them. I think that's the news we want to hear, because everybody in this country, whether front line, RCMP, or the public at large, wants to know that they can trust their national police force and that it's doing the job and the mandate we expect of it. I think we're on the right track with where we're heading.

That would be the extent of my comments on the matter. Mr. Sweet?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Assistant Commissioner Conlin, it sounds to me as though the task force is going to be reporting in December 2007. That's going to be the ultimate benchmark on decision-making in terms of what kind of governance modification is going to have to happen, not only in the ethics advisor's office but also in a number of other situations, in order to have some accountability. I think your term was “accountability with teeth”, or something to that degree, or “real accountability”.

Are you planning on making a submission to the task force yourself? You've been in the position now for five months, so you're going to have a good idea of the capacity you need to build, because you said one of the things you're doing is capacity-building.

First, are you going to be making a submission? Second, can you enlighten us on some things you'd be submitting that you feel the office requires in order for it to be effective and have accountability with teeth?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

Well, I have had the opportunity to speak with Mr. Brown, and what I've done is this.

As I said to you before, what we need to look at as well is where we need to be. Until just recently, I needed to build capacity. What I need to look at now, based on the issues that Mr. Brown's report will bring out as well as internal issues within the RCMP, things I see that we may have to change, is alternatives. That's why all this research is being done by the people on my staff; we're looking at alternatives. We're looking at how our office can effectively perform the duties it needs to do. We are looking, for example, at re-establishing an ethics council. These are all things that are put on the table.

We need to consult also with the employees of the organization. We need to consult at all levels to see what the requirements of an ethics office are for the front-line members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. What do they expect from our office? Then once we have those inputs, we need to know how we are going to deliver the requirements and what financial or human resources we are going to need to be able to attain those goals.

We have put forward some initiatives. For example, there is the ethics education, which is the big piece. That is a big piece, where we start from Depot right through to senior management. So those are the things we are enhancing and continuing as we speak.

The outreach initiative that I spoke of earlier, which former Commissioner Beverley Busson put in place, is something we're dealing with on an ongoing basis with people who are coming in--their concerns and how we're dealing with them.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Maybe I should stop you right there. I really wanted to try to get something specific from you that you're going to direct to the task force, but it doesn't look like I'm getting there.

Let me ask you this question. This outreach initiative has been going on for just a couple of months, is that correct?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

Yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

So it looks as if there was a logjam and it kind of burst forward, because people are now feeling comfortable. So there is some credibility in what you say, that there is a trust rebuilding in the organization. Thirty-two people have come forward. I think that's a huge capacity.

Would that be correct, Mr. Spice? You wouldn't get those kinds of complaints within two months on a regular basis, would you--32 individuals?

[John Spice]

Actually, when I began my tenure as the ethics advisor, we kept numbers, and yes, I think that would indicate that the trust is rebuilding, if that's your question.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

One little question.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I guess what I'm looking for is this. Specifically, you've had five months, and you've now had 32 people come into your office. Number one, have you got more staff to handle this surge? Number two, what do you specifically plan to say from your own experience? Will you say, listen, this task force has to do this or I cannot fulfill my responsibilities?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

First of all, let me clarify. I am not directing Mr. Brown's task force. I want to clarify that, please.

In terms of receiving staff, I have seven people now in my office. I have someone dealing with the Public Servants Disclosure Protection Act, who is the lead. I have two people on the outreach initiative at this time. I have one inspector who is now leading that research piece that I spoke about, in partnership with other areas, to look at alternative models, to look at the way we conduct our business and what we need to do to be an effective ethics office for the RCMP.

Right now we have a staff of seven. We will come forth when we have our plan in place, and we will come forth with a business case to the RCMP senior executive committee to get approval for the plan and also to get the human and financial resources that are going to be required.

But for me to say right now what exactly I'm going to need in my office six months from now.... This is ongoing. Our office may look totally different three months from now, so what I need to do is ensure that we are looking at all the alternatives, get a plan in place, and then staff it and get going and doing the things we need to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Sweet and Assistant Commissioner Conlin.

Now, colleagues, we're going to start round two. Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, four minutes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

On a point of clarification, Mr. Spice, you said that an officer basically contradicted what Mr. Giuliano Zaccardelli had said before this committee, that he absolutely did not call for a criminal investigation. I wasn't able to quickly write down the name. Could I get the exact name, rank, and where this officer worked?

[John Spice]

I gave you two names. Which one do you want?

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I wrote down “Denis”, and I didn't get--

[John Spice]

Superintendent Constant, at the time, was the executive officer for Commissioner Zaccardelli. I know that he wasn't privy to the conversation with Staff Sergeant Lewis and the commissioner. You can contact him through headquarters.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's why I needed the details. Thank you.

[John Spice]

I think I'd also be looking to A Division, to Superintendent Wayne Watson.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I got that name, yes.

[John Spice]

Okay, good. Great.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Conlin, you said that things today would be dealt with, and you mentioned SEC, the senior executive committee. How many members are there on SEC? Those are chief superintendents, assistant commissioners--no?

[A/Commr Sandra Conlin]

No, they are the commissioner, the deputy commissioners from the regions, the ethics advisor, as well as members from legal services and internal audit.