Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 7th, 2007

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Well, it's certainly not complete. I'm glad that in the first task force, and I'm sure this must be, to the viewers who are watching by the hundreds of thousands.... I think it's important that they know that this has been handed off, that this is being looked into. In the first part of work that Mr. Brown did, that was one of his recommendations. Now, he wasn't saying the Ottawa police force was negligent. He wasn't impugning any wrongdoing at all. But he did say, from the people he talked to in confidence, in camera, that he was of the view that it could have the appearance of a lack of independence, and because of that, he has agreed and suggested and is supportive of the fact that the OPP is doing work on this.

I don't think it would be right for me at this particular time to reach into that work. I don't think that would be appropriate. But it is important that the work of the Ottawa Police Service be reviewed, and I think the OPP are doing that. They are a responsible group of people, and I think they will do it effectively. We'll look for the outcome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Very briefly, Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Very briefly.

Minister, to clear the record up, the author of the report, Mr. Brown, stated categorically the OPS investigation was not independent. He spoke not about appearance or perception, he said it wasn't independent.

Finally, could you help Canadians understand why they should have more confidence now in punting this issue to the OPP and having them conduct such an investigation, when we know that the track record here, as illustrated by Mr. Brown, is hardly comforting in terms of the way it was done on the inside, at the RCMP? Why should we, why should Canadians, accept that punting it to another police force is going to solve this problem?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

The RCMP, in the first case, were investigating themselves. In the second case, as this moved along, it was the Ottawa Police Service. Let's be fair to what Mr. Brown said. He did not in any way suggest that there was wrongdoing on the part of the Ottawa Police Service.

We've already heard some suggestion today that this committee, which has done great work, doesn't have the expertise in all particular areas to dig into modes of investigation and how those are reported. I guess we could say the same thing about how Canadians have confidence that we, in Parliament, are doing things the right way. I think the proof will be in the pudding.

The Ontario Police Service will come out with the results of their work, and we will be among those who will judge that. The people will judge that. The fact that some may doubt a process should not cause that process to become non-existent; otherwise, Parliament itself wouldn't exist.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty.

Thank you, Minister Day.

Mr. Sweet, seven minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome, Minister. I have a couple of questions that only you could answer. The first one is of an international nature.

The RCMP not only has a great reputation here in Canada amongst Canadians, but also internationally. We have a number of partnerships, not the least of which is Haiti and Afghanistan, where we're training policemen.

I'm wondering, with the abundant coverage that has been applied to this issue, if you've heard from any of our international partners as to whether they have any concerns with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I guess it could be said that that's a bit of a risky question, but I think it's a fair question. To be honest with you, early on in the process, with all of the media that was surrounding the Arar investigation, certainly, and then this one, it crossed my mind as to whether the confidence level of our allies with whom we work, especially on the security side, was being eroded in any way because of this, especially the publicity.

I do meet with our counterparts--and not only our traditional allies, the so-called 5 Eyes, people in Great Britain and in New Zealand—but whether with them or the G8 securities ministers, as I met with our counterparts there, including our Russian counterpart, I actually asked that question. But I prefaced it by saying, look, I still have absolute and full confidence in the RCMP, but I'm just wondering, you folks, you're hearing a lot of stuff, is your confidence eroded? They said not in the least, each one independently, because I didn't ask that in a really public way. I didn't hold a conference of international police forces to ask that. But they said, we understand, and no police force is perfect, but it looks like there's some pretty aggressive work going on to fix any problems. They said that operationally it has not eroded their confidence one iota and that they appreciate the ongoing work with the RCMP.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Good. Thank you.

I have another question. In your busy schedule, I understand that you're able to actually get out and visit some of the different detachments and talk to rank and file officers while you're looking after the rest of your responsibilities. I'm wondering, have they been coming back to you and telling you about their concerns about this pension scandal, and do they feel that the entire force has been tainted because of it?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

One of the things I enjoy doing is stopping in not just at detachments, but even at roadside operations at various times, and not because I've been pulled over. As we all know, it's like when you go door to door in your constituencies; you're hearing from people one on one, without a filter. When I'm talking to members literally on the highways and the byways, or on the streets, or in the detachments, commanding officers aren't around, their superior officers aren't around, and they're pretty open.

One of the sentiments I hear fairly consistently is that they just want to see a system in place to clear all this, not to cover it but to clear it. It's almost universal that they recognize there were problems at the senior levels, and they have a concern. They're proud of what they do.

On Sunday, I'll be attending a service in Regina at Depot for officers killed in the line of duty, and the very next day, a graduation class. It's literally at both ends of the spectrum. For those going into the graduating class, neither the fear of literally dying on the job or the ongoing accusations that were in place before they were recruited and signed up for the class are enough to deter them from the fact that they feel called to care for and protect their fellow citizens.

So what I'm hearing from the rank and file is that they're frustrated. They want to see a system in place that deals with this kind of stuff. They are confident that the Auditor General has said, and it's been proven, that the pension fund itself is intact. The money that was inappropriately directed to other areas, to the disability plan and to the insurance plan, the $1.3 million, has been replaced. So they're confident with that, but they do want to see this dealt with. They want to see it dealt with properly. They don't want anything covered up, and they're looking for the day when there's a structure in place that allows them to do their work without this hanging over their heads.

It's that thing hanging over their heads that bothers some of them. But they all tell me to a man, to a woman, that they are proud to serve, they love their job, and they know that, like in any organization, the vast majority of them, the huge percentage of them, are honourable and are doing things in the right and correct way, and they'll continue to do that.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I've met many RCMP officers. In fact, we just had an opening of a new detachment in east Hamilton and I had an opportunity to dialogue with them. What I'm amazed about is their embodiment of the mission vision and values: honesty, integrity, courage.

Are they saying to you, or do you have an indication yourself as the minister, that with this hanging over their heads it's impeding their job? Is it making their job untenable to do ethically and effectively on a day-to-day basis?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

No. In terms of doing their job, they reflect positively on their training, on their desire to do a good job.

This is not partisan, but I have had a number reflect that they like the legislation we're bringing forward, things like mandatory jail terms for people who commit crimes with firearms, the ability to see the bad guys or bad girls who they go after and put in jail stay there and do fair time and not get out under the radar. There are some things with the system that frustrate them, the system that we are all responsible for, which I hope we can see changes to.

They're pleased to hear that we are going forward with our commitment for a thousand more RCMP officers across the country, which resulted in a $37 million expansion at Depot in Regina to accommodate that. They're pleased when they see the $64 million drug strategy that's going to put more dollars on the street for anti-drug problems, and the sexual exploitation centre, which is getting an extra $6 million. About those type of things they say, “Good.”

If they reflect negatively in a significant way, or if their frustration really comes to the fore, it's that they want to see the government clear away what are perceived to be obstacles to having people dealt with who want to hurt others. They want those people contained. They want to see recidivism rates drop. They are very much for the rights of citizens, and they are hoping to see the government working along in that direction.

I hope too, again in a non-partisan way, the Liberal Senate comes onside with some of the legislation that's being held up right now, because our RCMP officers, police officers in general, reflect very favourably on it, because it helps them do their job of keeping our country safe.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sweet.

Thank you, Minister Day.

That, colleagues and witness, concludes today's session.

On behalf of the committee, Minister Day, I want to thank you very much for appearing here today. This committee, hopefully, will be reporting to government, and we certainly look forward to our future dialogues. Thank you very much again.

The meeting is adjourned.