Public Accounts Committee on June 8th, 2006

[Tim McGrath]

Yes, I have met with Mr. Doucet, but in no way had he any involvement in the discussions or negotiations leading to the signature of the letter of intent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

What would be the purpose of the meeting?

[Tim McGrath]

What would be the purpose of meeting with him?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Yes, with Mr. Doucet.

[Tim McGrath]

Mr. Doucet registered as a lobbyist for this particular transaction with Minto. He came in and asked some questions. We didn't furnish any type of responses to him from the departmental level. I'm not sure what he thought he would gain out of meeting with us as departmental officials.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

How many times did he meet with you?

[Tim McGrath]

Just once.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Did he meet with other officials in the department?

[Tim McGrath]

That I don't know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I have one other point I want to make.

I have contacted the Department of Public Works as a member of Parliament, and your position is that you won't deal with members of Parliament at your levels. We're referred to some communications person.

You won't meet with a member of Parliament, but Mr. McGrath, you have no problem at all sitting down with a lobbyist—and some people describe him in other words—like Mr. Doucet. Do you see any conflict with that policy? I really see a problem.

[Tim McGrath]

In this particular case, there was nothing left to discuss. The letter of intent, the terms and conditions, were agreed to. It was subject to Treasury Board approval.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. McGrath, there is something left to discuss: whether or not you exercised the letter of intent—that's what has to be discussed. I assume that's what Mr. Doucet was there to push you on.

[Tim McGrath]

At that point in time it's up to ministers to make the decision as to whether or not they'd like to execute.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay.

I have no further questions. I thank you.

I'm going to ask for any brief closing remarks, Mr. Campbell, Mr. Marshall, or Mr. Libbey.

[Ronnie Campbell]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will take a few seconds to go back to an issue I raised in my opening statement, and that is the need for incentives in the system--incentives for good management.

I think there has been a lot of talk around 800 Place Victoria. Mr. Marshall did say that departments are accountable for the decisions they make to move or not move, but in this case, that $4.6 million came out of the Public Works budget. You could say it's easier to spend somebody else's budget. I think whatever solutions you're looking to, that's the crux of the matter in terms of accountability.

Your committee has asked for a number of documents from the department. I will take a second to point to recommendation 7.20. In cases in which the department makes decisions that are not the most economic or cost-effective, we're recommending the report go in the DPR. Perhaps through that process you might get more and clearer information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Campbell.

Mr. Marshall.

[David Marshall]

Mr. Chairman, I'll follow on from that. We have accepted the Auditor General's recommendation. In each case in which our analysis showing the lowest cost was not the one that was eventually implemented, we will report it in our departmental performance report so that you can see it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you.

On behalf of the committee, gentlemen, I want to thank you very much for your appearance here today. I think it's been a very beneficial meeting, and I want to thank the members.

As I stated before, we're going to ask Dr. Peter Wilkins to come to the table and say a few words, if he's here. I think he is. We'll get a brief comment from Dr. Wilkins.

My first question, Dr. Wilkins, is how did you enjoy the Canadian parliamentary accounts committee?

[Peter Wilkins, Executive Director, Performance Review Division, Office of the Auditor General for Western Australia]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I found it most interesting. I should say I've come back to listen to this committee. I was in Ottawa for six months back in 1998. That was obviously a predecessor of the committee. It's clearly a very important part of the accountability process to have the information from an audit institution followed through by the committee.

By way of introduction, I work for the state audit office in western Australia, with responsibility for the performance audits.

I also hold a voluntary position, you might say, as an adjunct professor in one of the western Australia universities. I'm scoping, at this stage, some research into the interactions between audit institutions and parliamentary committees. This is a little bit of background for me, to get a sense of how this committee is operating with reports such as the one we just heard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We certainly appreciate your being here.

[Peter Wilkins]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We'll suspend for about three minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'd like to call this meeting to order, members, witnesses, and members of the public.

I want to welcome everyone here. I want to welcome our witnesses.

Everyone is aware that this is the second meeting with witnesses dealing with the chapter on Parliament's control of public spending of the May 2006 Report of the Auditor General, which of course has been referred to this committee.

This meeting, Members, will be a one-hour meeting. We have with us, as individuals: Margaret Bloodworth, the former deputy minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada; and Jim Judd, the former secretary treasurer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat. Also, we have from the Department of Public Works and Government Services: Scott Leslie, a senior director; Henry Sano, a director general; and John Shearer, former assistant deputy minister, Service Integration Branch.

Witnesses, I want to welcome you to the committee. First of all, I want to ask if anyone has any opening....

On a point of order, Mr. Williams.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. John Shearer is former assistant deputy minister. Is he still with the Department of Public Works? And what is his current position?

[John Shearer, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Integration Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'm still with the Department of Public Works. I am currently between assignments, on special assignment to the deputy minister.