Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 13th, 2007

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Obviously the concern is that we're entering into a period of rising military budgets. There is a lot of new money flowing into the military, and it's concerning. One of the areas that's concerning in health care, which you raised as well, is mental health. This is becoming more and more an issue, obviously for our soldiers who are returning after active duty, who are faced with mental health issues. You referenced the fact that there really is not enough support in this regard being given to them when they come back. I wonder if you can speak to your concerns in that regard and to what your response was.

[Sheila Fraser]

In the current system, when a member is not able to obtain mental health care services from a practitioner within the military health care system, they are then referred to the public system. So the services are made available to them.

One of the issues that we have noted, though, was that when they are referred to the public health care system, they then kind of lose track of it. They don't know the outcomes, and they aren't able to follow the case as well. So there is an issue around that. They weren't able to give us any information about the numbers of cases either. We asked for that information and it wasn't available.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I have another question, Mr. Chairman. If everybody finishes a little bit early, perhaps we'll have an opportunity at the end to discuss which chapters we want to look at.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Normally that would go to the steering committee, Mr. Holland. But then we could go to main committee.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Sure, that's okay. I'm fine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Holland.

Monsieur Laforest, huit minutes.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will be splitting my time with Mr. Lussier.

Good day, Ms. Fraser and welcome to the members of your team. I have two comments of a general nature, which will serve as both comments and questions.

In your last report, you stated that you had encountered some problems accessing certain information. I believe that in the case of the Treasury Board Secretariat—I cannot recall exactly which file was involved—you had problems accessing information. Did you encounter similar problems this time around as you conducted your various audits?

[Sheila Fraser]

No. We were able to gain access to all the information we requested.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you.

My second comment is also of a general nature. Earlier, I mentioned that I have been a member of the public accounts committee for one year and that I have had an opportunity to analyse various reports submitted by your office. On several occasions, you have pointed out that an agency or department had been audited three, four or five years earlier. Departmental officials had indicated that they would take the necessary steps to correct problems identified. Yet, when another audit was done five or six years later, the problem was still not resolved.

I see that in each of your report's chapters, you come to the same conclusion in terms of the reaction of the department or agency audited. For example, you observe that the Department of National Defence has accepted your recommendations and is taking steps to address the concerns... I imagine that the response was the same five years ago. I didn't read it, but I imagine the report said the same thing.

We've talked about this situation before and I find it worrisome. Have you already planned to conduct some surprise audits? Perhaps your audits are always unannounced, but maybe, for three or four years, you could audit a particular department or agency to ascertain if...

Take Chapter 4, for example. We read that in 2002, 25% of Canadian Forces members who reported some mental health problems expressed satisfaction with the care they received. That was in 2002, already five years ago. Is there some way that Canadian Forces members could be surveyed again next year? We know that some are experiencing some serious psychological problems. Could a similar audit of military health care be conducted again in 2008 and if necessary, again in 2009 and 2010?

I understand that you cannot conduct repeat audits unnecessarily, but you understand the principle here. It is a matter of putting the departments and agencies on the spot. As I see it, it is easy for them to say that they accept the audit results and will take steps to put measures in place, but the process is so time-consuming that many issues remain unresolved.

[Sheila Fraser]

I will answer the question in two parts.

First of all, the survey to which you alluded was conducted by National Defence. Further to the findings made, the department began to change the way in which it provided health care services. I expect National Defence to take follow-up action to improve the quality of health care and to ensure that information systems provide concrete feedback on the improvements made to the health care system. If ever parliamentary hearings are held, you can discuss the subject with departmental officials.

Our office does follow up on the audits it conducts. As you know, we release a Status Report, generally in February, on past audits conducted to ascertain if indeed the government has followed up on our recommendations. Most chapters indicate that satisfactory results are being achieved. Obviously, some departments have not followed up on our recommendations as we expected them to and have not implemented the action plan. There can be many reasons for this. Certainly, many changes can be attributed to the parliamentary hearings, the requests for action plans and the follow-up reports.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Lussier, you have two and a half minutes.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Ms. Fraser, I see no reference in Chapter 5 of your report, which focuses on keeping the border open, of the program to arm border services officers. Is the program too recent for you to comment on?

[Sheila Fraser]

Yes, it is. We have yet to examine this program. As you know, it has only just been implemented.However, we are considering the possibility of auditing the program.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I see. I have a second question for you. In Chapter 5, you say that 93% of boaters and private aircraft passengers required to report by telephone did not see an Agency officer when they arrived in Canada. Isn't it a mistake not to check boaters and small private aircraft passengers at the border for weapons, drugs and cigarettes? That is the normal procedure.

[Sheila Fraser]

Again, I assume it is a question of resources, but it would be best to discuss the implications of this with the Agency.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

According to your report, most airports in Canada do not have permanent staff. Why is that? A total of 183 airports do not have any permanent employees, only temporary employees. What does this mean in terms of continuity at our airports?

[Sheila Fraser]

Here again, it's a question of resources, in my view. As you know, there are many small airports in the country. In the Agency's opinion, risks are greater at the larger airports where traffic volume is the heaviest. Again, perhaps this is an issue that you should discuss with the Agency, if ever you were to hold parliamentary hearings.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Lussier.

Mr. Sweet, eight minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Madam Fraser, I just wanted to clarify something with regard to those suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder injuries. Did you say there was no record of the number of cases out there, and no case follow-up?

[Sheila Fraser]

You'll notice that we asked how many members were receiving mental health care services, and the department was not able to give us that information, again because of the information systems. And when they are referred to the public health care system, the information is not available. They lose track of those people.

So there is a real need to improve the quality of the information.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I wanted to find out, too, if there was a clear delineation, when you were investigating, between who was looking after these soldiers, whether it was Veterans Affairs or Defence.

[Sheila Fraser]

In this particular case, it was National Defence, yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay.

I'm just looking at the summary of all the chapters, and it's stated here, under the Canada Border Services Agency, that, “In addition, it does not record some of the information it could be using to determine the effectiveness of its targeting....”

You had mentioned one aspect about containers. How profuse is this lack of information-gathering? It sounded as though, when Mr. Holland asked you those questions, there was absolutely no system for them to record information as far as traffic is concerned.