Evidence of meeting #1 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Justin Vaive
Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Ronnie Campbell  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

If I may speak briefly to it, as chair, I see situations where an examiner gets into it and they're just getting to the nub of the issue and the eight minutes are up. I feel bad in cutting it off, although I have no choice under the routine motions. Of course, normally, the next examiner will go to a totally different subject or topic. Sometimes you wonder if we'd be better off if we had fewer questioners rather than more, but these are the Standing Orders.

I know your point, Mr. Hubbard, but again, I appreciate Mr. Williams' point too.

Any other discussion?

Mr. Fitzpatrick.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I'd just pass the comment on to Charles, too, that the experience I have here is that we have some pretty experienced witnesses who appear before this committee. They generally look at trying to get out of here without having to give any more information than possible, to talk out their time and so on. Eight minutes really is inadequate to deal with those people as it is. To shorten it up I don't think would make any sense at all.

If some members feel strongly, they can split some of their time with some of their members if they want. I don't see shortening these things up; I'd say we should be looking at lengthening them.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Are there other comments or discussion?

I'm going to put it to a vote.

(Motion agreed to)

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Was that carried, Mr. Chair?

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

That was carried.

That concludes the routine motions, save one that will be put on the agenda at the next meeting after the parties have had time to deliberate on the amendment and the original motion.

We'll invite the analysts over.

Alex and Lydia, come on over and join us. The motion passed, thankfully.

Colleagues, that concludes the business that was on the orders of the day. However, as everyone is aware, this committee is way behind in our agendas and our reports, etc., so in order not to waste the remaining time in the meeting, I asked the clerk to invite the Auditor General here so that we could start on her report.

However, before I do that, that is a decision to be made by the entire committee, not by the chair or by the clerk. So we would require a motion to call the Auditor General up to start the presentation of her report. That was the report tabled two weeks ago, her October 2007 report.

Is someone prepared to make a motion that the Auditor General be called?

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB

I so move.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Is there any discussion?

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

That will require unanimous consent.

9:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

That will require unanimous consent, Mr. Williams. As chair I would want all parties to be in agreement. If one of the parties were fundamentally in disagreement with the procedure, I would feel comfortable not doing it.

All in favour of the motion to call the auditor?

(Motion agreed to)

9:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

It's carried unanimously.

We're going to suspend the meeting for two minutes.

9:47 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

Welcome to the first meeting of this session of Parliament. I'd like to publicly welcome again our three new members: Monsieur Lussier, Mr. Hubbard, and Mr. Holland.

Colleagues, we have with us today the Auditor General, Sheila Fraser. She's accompanied by assistant auditors Ronnie Campbell and Hugh McRoberts. She is going to start the presentation of her October 2007 report, which was filed in Parliament approximately two weeks ago.

What I've proposed to do, colleagues, is to go to 11 o'clock. I will ask members of the steering committee--Mr. Christopherson, Monsieur Laforest, and Mr. Sweet--just to stay around for five minutes after. I just want to have a very brief conversation.

Having said that, I will now turn the floor over to Mrs. Fraser for opening comments.

November 13th, 2007 / 9:47 a.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are pleased to be here today to present our fall 2007 report, which was tabled in the House of Commons on October 30.

As you mentioned, I am accompanied by assistant auditors general Hugh McRoberts and Ronnie Campbell.

Several chapters of this report touch upon the government's use of information for managing. Fundamental to the success of any organization is knowing what information that organization needs, collecting it, and using it to manage well.

One of our audits looked at an important source of information used by governments, that being the population census. Specifically we looked at how Statistics Canada managed the 2006 census.

Governments and other institutions use census data for many important purposes. For example, federal transfer payments to the provinces—amounting to around $62 billion in 2006-2007—are based in part on census population estimates. It is therefore critical that Statistics Canada ensure the quality of the information it collects.

We found that Statistics Canada managed the 2006 census successfully. It acted to improve the quality of the information on population groups that have been hard to count. And it made considerable efforts to ensure that the privacy of information supplied by respondents was protected.

We noted some areas that could be improved, and we are pleased that Statistics Canada has agreed to our recommendations for improvement.

In chapter 4, our audit of military health care, we noted that Canadian Forces members surveyed by military clinics were satisfied with the care they received, but we found that National Defence itself has little information to assess the quality of care provided by the military health care system in Canada. National Defence does not have some of the basic information we would expect to see in a well-managed system of health care. For example, it did not know whether all of its health care professionals were licensed or certified to practice.

It also lacks the information to know whether levels of service at the clinics are appropriate to medical and operational needs and whether the costs of providing them are reasonable.

Better information from its health care system would help assure National Defence that military members are receiving quality health care at the appropriate level and cost.

Another area where information in fundamental is managing the border. In order to keep the border open and also secure, the Canada Border Services Agency must have the right information and use it effectively. We did not audit all aspects of border security; we looked at the Agency's efforts to enhance its identification of risks and its targeting.

It would be impossible for the Agency to examine every person and shipment entering the country and still maintain an open border. This underlines the need for effective targeting methods so that low-risk people can enter while appropriate action is taken for those who are high-risk.

We found that the Canada Border Services Agency has made significant investments in automated systems to identify high-risk travellers and shipments before they enter Canada. These tools are still in the early stages of development and implementation, and border services officers continue to rely more on their own analysis and judgment to select shipments for examination.

We looked at whether the Agency has measures in place to tell it how well its initiatives are working. We found that it does not capture enough information on the results of its activities to know whether it is doing a good job at the border or to know whether improvements are needed.

We hope this audit will be useful to the Agency as it moves forward with its enhanced approach to border security. I am pleased that it has accepted all of our recommendations.

A related issue is how the federal government ensures the security of sensitive information and assets that it makes available to industry in the course of contracting. We found serious problems in a system that is supposed to ensure the security of government information and assets entrusted to industry. I am particularly concerned about failures to identify security requirements for major defence construction projects.

We found that many in government who play a role in industrial security are not sure of their responsibilities. Further, the industrial security program has a major role but does not have the stable long-term funding needed to hire and retain enough qualified professionals.

Failing to protect sensitive information in contracting can pose serious risks to the national interest. Reducing these risks will take a concerted effort to strengthen accountability, clarify policies, and ensure that roles and responsibilities are clearly understood and respected.

Another area of concern featured in this report is the federal government's handling of the Inuvialuit Final Agreement, which in 1984 settled Inuvialuit claims to lands in the western Arctic. We found that 23 years later the federal government has yet to meet some of its significant obligations under the agreement. For example, it has not yet taken the necessary steps to transfer control and use of several parcels of land to the Inuvialuit, nor can it demonstrate that it is meeting its obligations to inform the Inuvialuit of federal contracts in the settlement region.

In 2003 we made similar observations about the department's approach to agreements with the Gwich’in and the Inuit. It is disappointing that Indian and Northern Affairs Canada has continued to focus only on specific obligations and has not worked in partnership with the Inuvialuit toward the goals of this agreement.

We recently began to include some of the smaller federal organizations in our regular performance audit work. Despite their relatively small size, these organizations can have a significant impact on the lives of Canadians.

This year, we looked at the Canada Industrial Relations Board, the Canadian Forces Grievance Board, and the Courts Administration Service. I am pleased to report that the results of our audit were generally positive.

In all three cases, we found good procedures and proper controls for the use of acquisition cards, executive travel, hospitality expenses, and executive compensation and benefits. We did find some problematic human resources practices in two of the organizations, and each is working to resolve them.

The Canada Revenue Agency has made a significant investment in employee training and learning on tax issues. We found that it has in place many of the processes needed to manage its investment well; it now needs to implement them fully.

The Agency's ability to protect Canada's tax base depends in large part on the knowledge and skills of its employees, especially those who must interpret complex, technical, and frequently changing tax laws and regulations. I am pleased to see that the Agency is on the right path in managing its investment in their development.

As you know, the annual report of the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development was also tabled in Parliament on October 30. In that report, the interim commissioner concludes that the weaknesses identified in sustainable development strategies over the past decade still persist to this day. He found that most departments still have not identified the significant sustainable development impacts of their policies and programs. Yet this was Parliament's expectations for the strategies.

The commissioner is calling on the government to carry out a thorough review of its current approach to sustainable development strategies. I am pleased that the government has agreed with the commissioner's recommendation and has made a commitment to complete it by October 2008.

Sustainable development strategies are a very important management tool. I would like to encourage the public accounts committee to review this matter. Attention from this committee would reinforce the importance of the review and would signal the expectations of parliamentarians. As well, hearings before the public accounts committee often encourage government to produce action plans with detailed timelines. This, along with recommendations from the committee, could result in concrete action.

That concludes my statement, Mr. Chair. We would be happy to respond to questions members may have.

Thank you.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Ms. Fraser. Merci beaucoup.

We will have time, colleagues, for probably one round of eight minutes and then a very short round after that.

Mr. Holland, eight minutes.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Thank you.

I'll split my time with Mr. Hubbard so that we....

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Holland, I should point out that Mr. Hubbard will have an eight-minute round himself.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Okay.

First of all, Ms. Fraser, thank you so much for appearing before our committee today. It's good to be back on this committee and it's good to see you again.

There are a couple of things. Today, principally, we're going to focus on what chapters we as a committee want to review and what areas we think we should follow up on. So my questions will largely deal with that.

First of all, there are a lot of important matters for the committee to deal with. But I do think, given the noise in Parliament on the day the report came out, perhaps the issues didn't get as much attention as they merited.

I noticed in your opening statement that you didn't reference some concerns you had with respect to high-risk individuals and shipments that were not being intercepted upon entry. I'm wondering if you can touch on that for us today and your concerns in that regard.

9:55 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As was mentioned, we did note in the report that there were certain individuals who were on watch lists who did not go through the secondary inspection we would have expected. As well, certain containers were allowed into the country and had been clearly identified as ones that should not be able to come in. The difficulty we had is that the agency doesn't have a system to collect information, so we were unable to determine, for example with the containers, if it was because they had received additional information and determined that this was a low-risk container or if it was simply an error that occurred and the container came in and should not have come in.

It's the same thing with the people on the watch list. It was difficult to know why those people were let in. Was it an error, or was it because, as we mentioned in the report, sometimes the name doesn't exactly match?

So one of our major recommendations in all of this--and a recommendation actually the office has been making for several years--is that the agency should have much more information, should know the results of its secondary inspection, for example, and should have much more rigorous information systems. They are working on developing this, but it's still in the very early stages.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

Why have they not responded? Why have they taken so long to respond? We know on certain issues we're spending over $1 billion hiring border guards, but this you've been raising for several years. What's their explanation as to why this hasn't been implemented or why they haven't acted on it?

10 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

You would really have to ask the agency that. In part it's probably a question of funding. They have made the statement to us several times, and we noted in the report, that they believe they do not have enough funding. We obviously didn't get into an assessment of that. But they are expecting to have a request go in for additional funding.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

But to you, the issue they raised was one of resources? The problem was simply a lack of funds?

10 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

That seems to be the major explanation they're giving to us now. As to why it wasn't done in the past, I really don't know. You'd have to ask the agency people.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

The other area where there is a concern with lack of information is National Defence, with respect to soldiers and the quality of health care they are receiving. We want to make sure that if soldiers are overseas, or here, they're receiving adequate health care. You didn't touch a lot on that. I'm just wondering if you could speak to what the problem is there with respect to the information being received and what kind of response you're getting to that concern.

10 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

I would just like to clarify that the audit we did was on health care services in Canada. We have a report that we will be tabling in the spring that will be looking at support to deployed operations. So this is really the health care system here in the country.

Again, the department does not have the information that one would expect. Most of the medical records, for example, are paper records. So it's very difficult to get any kind of trend or any sort of analysis without going through individual charts, which is an almost impossible thing to do.

They started developing a system--in 1999, I believe it was--and only expect it to be completed in 2011, which appears to us to be a very long time. It would seem again that funding may be an issue there, that the funding was not given to this and may have been put into other higher priority items. I guess there's just really a sense that they have managed the system without the kind of information one would expect.

They have done periodic surveys, and that is how we were able to point to one survey that found that the members were saying they believed they were getting very good health care. But we would have expected much more information to manage this very important system.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON

In fact that lack of information was so acute that in some cases you weren't able to ascertain whether or not some of the health care professionals were properly licensed.

10 a.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

The department was not able to tell us if the health care professionals had the necessary certifications or were licensed. We ourselves did an audit, or ascertained that the medical doctors were all certified and did have a licence to practise within Canada in one of the provinces. But the department was not able to tell us that.