Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bonaventure.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gary Polachek  As an Individual
Janice Cochrane  As an Individual
Alex Smith  Committee Researcher

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Order, please. I'd like to call the meeting to order.

I want to welcome everyone. Bienvenue à tous.

This meeting, colleagues, witnesses, is a matter the committee has been charged with for some time now. It's chapter 7, “Acquisition of Leased Office Space”, of the May 2006 Report of the Auditor General of Canada. It was originally referred to the committee on May 16, 2006.

We have before us today Janice Cochrane, former Deputy Minister of Public Works and Government Services, and Mr. Gary Polachek, who was involved with the company that at one time owned Place Victoria in the city of Montreal.

Mr. Williams.

11 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order before we get into the committee.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Yes, Mr. Williams.

11 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

It deals with remarks that the member from Charlottetown made in the House last Thursday. I believe it was you who made some rather disparaging remarks in the House of Commons. I know you made an apology in the House yesterday, but you are our illustrious leader here in the committee, and I found those remarks somewhat offensive. I think that an apology from you to this committee would be appropriate and would ensure that you will enjoy the confidence of the committee as we go forward.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I have no difficulty with this at all.

I agree with Mr. Williams one hundred percent. In addition to apologizing to the House and other interested parties yesterday, I want to offer my apologies to the members of the committee and its staff. In doing so, I want to reiterate that I retracted my remarks. They were unfortunate, improper, and unparliamentary. I regret them.

11 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think we can consider the matter closed.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

That matter's over.

Mr. Fitzpatrick.

11 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK

On that point of order, Chair, I want to compliment you. The apology was straightforward and unconditional, and that's very seldom seen around this place. We all make mistakes, and once in a while we have to apologize. I give you a lot a credit.

As I went through the transcripts on this matter, I found it to be another case in which we have a lot of conflicting testimony in key areas. I appreciate that the witnesses probably understand the importance of telling the truth before a parliamentary committee, but I think it would be good if the chair reminded them of the consequences of being less than frank before this committee. I don't want anybody to be misled about the mess they can get themselves in if they want to play games before this committee.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Okay, Mr. Fitzpatrick.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Mr. Chairman, I hope that Mr. Fitzpatrick is not making a reference to our witnesses here today.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK

No, I'm not.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Fine, I just wanted that clarified.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

No, I don't think he is.

I believe it is appropriate to remind witnesses—all witnesses—that they're appearing before a parliamentary committee and Parliament expects the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I expect nothing less.

I'm going to start the meeting. I'm going to ask Mr. Polachek if he has an opening statement.

11:05 a.m.

Gary Polachek As an Individual

First of all, it's Gary Polachek—

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Oh, Polachek. Excuse me, I'm sorry.

11:05 a.m.

As an Individual

Gary Polachek

—and I do not have an opening statement.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Ms. Cochrane, do you have an opening statement?

11:05 a.m.

Janice Cochrane As an Individual

Yes, Mr. Chair. I have some brief opening remarks, if you will permit me.

First of all, I'd like to thank you for inviting me to appear before you in connection with this lease transaction for Place Victoria in Montreal, as reported by the Auditor General in her May 2006 report.

For the record, I was Deputy Minister of Public Works and Government Services from April 2001 until May 2003. I retired from the public service in February 2005, so I am appearing before you today as an individual, not as a public servant.

My recollection of this particular lease transaction is limited, given the passage of six to seven years since the beginning of the tender call. Until April 2002, it was indeed a routine tender call, one of more than 500 leases dealt with by the department on an annual basis.

I have, however, had the opportunity to review all relevant departmental records, and I have seen the transcripts of previous testimony by officials before this committee. I do not disagree with, nor do I dispute, any of the facts and information provided to date. I refer in particular to the summary of events described by David Marshall, former Deputy Minister of Public Works and Government Services, when he made his opening remarks to the committee during his appearance on January 31, 2007.

You have also had the benefit of testimony from former deputy ministers of the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the region of Quebec.

I do not have any further comments at this point, but I will try to answer your questions to the best of my recollection.

Thank you. Merci.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Ms. Cochrane.

It's the first round, and we have time for eight minutes.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

I'm going to remind again that we're dealing with an issue that we've dealt with. Years have gone by; there have been witnesses beforehand, and there are still unanswered questions, but please, members, keep your questions short and to the point. I'd ask witnesses to keep their answers relevant to the question we are talking about, and to be as brief as possible under the circumstances. Thank you very much.

Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for appearing before us today.

All of this stems out of an Auditor General report of May 2006, in chapter 7, and it actually stems from one table, exhibit 7.2, which is used as an example of mishandling by the department. It says:

A client's request and a decision by Public Works and Government Services Canada not to enforce standards results in additional cost of $4.6 million.

I guess some of the discomfort that's been expressed at this committee has been around this number of $4.6 million stated by the Auditor General. She then goes on to give a breakdown. In that table she says:

Renewing the lease at Place Victoria cost $2.5 million more than the winning bid in the tendering process, and PWGSC paid $2.1 million in unproductive rent to that bidder while trying to locate tenants for the additional space.

The $4.6 million is broken down into two parts: $2.5 million and $2.1 million of unproductive rent, with $2.5 million being the additional cost of Place Victoria compared to Place Bonaventure.

You said you've gone through all the evidence. A year ago I tabled the summary of proposals, the tenders, and in it we find out—because it's not footnoted by the Auditor General—it appears that $2.5 million was based on a gross rental rate offered at $430.80. We know that the final rate arrived at was in fact $308. Additionally--and there are three points to this--for us to arrive at an accurate number, there are three aspects. If I'm incorrect with my calculations, outside of rounding errors, please stop me.

Place Bonaventure was at $236.81, but its basic unit operating rate was $99.57--almost $100--for a total of $336.38. On top of the $308 at Place Victoria, you have to add in $48.33 for the operating rent, so we end up at an actual cost of $356.33, compared to $336 at Place Bonaventure, so still about $20 per square metre higher, or $2 per square foot, approximately.

Then we find out that when the rate was renegotiated, the square footage was slightly smaller: it was 5,340 square metres, as opposed to 5,790 square metres at Place Bonaventure. When you extrapolate out, what you find is the rent at Place Victoria, after we go through those three steps, was in fact $291,062.20 less over a five-year period, and that means a savings of $1,455,311, as opposed to the loss of $2.5 million that was referred to based on a rental rate that wasn't the real rental rate, because the real rental rate was $308. That was what I assume the department's decision was based upon. You're actually looking at a savings of almost $1.5 million, but you still have the problem of the unproductive rent of $2.1 million. If you take out the savings, you're still facing a loss of $644,000.

You said you went through the testimony before this committee. A year ago Mr. André Gladu appeared before the committee, and when I asked him what the moving costs were, he said he remembered a figure of between $500,000 and $1 million. You said that you'd gone through the testimony. That's within the $644,000 cost that I've just gone through all the mechanics of arriving at. Do you have a more specific number?

11:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Janice Cochrane

Yes, indeed. I have had an opportunity to review the testimony--

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

You can see how little the chair is listened to on the short questions. You've got two minutes to answer the question.

11:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Janice Cochrane

I do not have a precise figure on the moving costs. The moving costs would be variable, depending upon the furniture, computers, and other equipment that the client would have been required to acquire in order to carry out that move.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I've seen your memo of May 31, 2002, to Minister Goodale at that time. He signed off on that memo, the recommendation there. Did you have discussions with him about this prior to that memo being sent to him?

11:10 a.m.

As an Individual

Janice Cochrane

I don't recall any discussions with him.