Public Accounts Committee on April 1st, 2008

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

It does seem like a lot of administration just to send out cheques.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

We're not just sending out cheques, sir. There are a lot of calculations involved in--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Right, but ultimately the service you provide is a cheque in the mail.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

The end product is, yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

That's the end product, a cheque in the mail. That does seem to be a lot of administration to put a cheque in the mail.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

I'm sure we can continuously improve how we're doing this, but at the same time, in agriculture we have to--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Let's keep in mind also that this does not include any of the private accounting costs accrued by the farmer.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

It doesn't include that because we don't have that, as I--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

In 2004, only 15,000 people received $10,000 or less. Actually, the total number of people who received anything at all is about 15,062.

You know, you have 600 employees to administer cheques to 15,062 farmers, the vast, vast majority of whom got less than $10,000. It just seems like a heck of a lot of bureaucracy to deliver so little to so few.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Sir, the employees we have are also delivering other programs, and in some cases over 150,000 producers are applying. So while I appreciate the point you're making, it's not a fair comparison--what people got paid in one year in one particular program.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Right. I understand.

I'll just conclude by saying, on the other subject, that if Prime Minister Harper found out that one of his caucus members was taking private fees to provide constituency services like immigration help or employment insurance help, he would have one question for them: “Did you like civics class in high school? Because you're history.” And that would be the end of it. They'd be out of caucus.

I assume that's true of any party in this House of Commons. The idea of accepting any sort of payment for private benefit, to carry out work related to your public duties, would be a firing offence in any organization, as far as I see it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Do you want to respond? Okay.

Mr. Lussier, you have four minutes.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Deputy, you were appointed in March 2007, and starting in July 2007, you created two new programs. What was your involvement in the creation of those two new programs?

I am particularly interested in the involvement of the provinces in the creation of those two new programs. Did you consult them? Had you met with the ministers?

Were those new programs created at the request of the provinces or are they a federal creation?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

When I started in March 2007, the business risk management programs were at the initial conceptual stage. I worked on it with my department, and I discussed it with my federal-provincial deputy colleagues. At the time, our minister met with his provincial colleagues. We had extensive consultations with the industry.

In agriculture, as you know, sir, it's joint jurisdiction. All of the decisions we make are made with the provinces. They have been fully involved, and we have the ministers' agreement. Hopefully we will have these programs be more successful than what we've had so far.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

How often do the provincial and federal ministers or deputy ministers meet? Or is it, rather, meetings between senior officials administering those two programs?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Yes, sir. The ministers meet on an annual basis, and then in between they have averaged two to three meetings a year. Deputy ministers have met approximately four times to six times a year--it depends on the workload. Assistant deputy ministers of policy--and they're all senior people--met in upwards of eight to ten meetings over the last year. I think that would be accurate.

If we are negotiating something, it needs a lot of engagement, but if things are negotiated, then you can have fewer meetings, because it's a lot of effort and work.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

In your document, on page 12, I'm reading the paragraph about the Public Service Values and Ethics Code. It states, “It is important to note that the government's Values and Ethics Code is values-based rather than compliant-based”. Yet, two paragraphs later, you say that employees will comply with the Values and Ethics Code.

Could you tell me why you're talking about non-compliance in one paragraph, and in another, you say that employees will comply with it.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

That's not what I meant. The Values and Ethics Code is a code that applies to all public servants. The onus is on every employee to comply with the code, so that's the nub of it.

What we do is make sure that employees are aware of their responsibilities under the code, and the code is pretty clear. Should they not follow the code, there will be disciplinary action.

So the values-based meaning is basically what it is. It's not a code; it is not a law per se. It is a code that governs all of the public service.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

One more question.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Madam Deputy, you said that you have spent most of your career within the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food. Before being appointed deputy minister, you worked within the Department of Agriculture. Were you aware that employees were in a position of conflict of interest and were helping applicants? Was the department aware of this situation before the Auditor General made it public?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

No, I have no knowledge, sir. I started my job a year ago. Before that I was in Privy Council Office for five years. Before that I was in the policy division. I was the policy ADM.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I have a question for the Auditor General's office. I was looking at the scope and approach of the audit and I was wondering, because I didn't see it here, whether any individual producers were interviewed.

[Andrew Lennox]

Yes, I do believe there were, but I'll refer that to my colleague Mr. Kunze, who can elaborate exactly on the people we interviewed.