Evidence of meeting #23 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was farmers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Well, what's new is that it will be done, sir.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I presume they said that before too, Mr. Chairman, so I wouldn't consider that to be new.
Anyway, there's been some comment here....
By the way, just for my edification, Ms. Semaan, you're the assistant deputy minister of farm financial programs branch. Do you have an accounting designation?
12:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Farm Financial Programs Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
No, I do not.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
One of the things we've heard about here today is the horrendous complexity for farmers. They're not accountants either; they're farmers. Numbers aren't their strength.
What is the accounting cost for farmers to prepare these CAIS programs? You collect all kinds of information and data, so I presume you've been collecting this as well.
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
I don't know how much it costs for an accountant. That's information we don't have--what accountants charge.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
But you collect a great amount of detailed information--the amount of feed, the amount of fertilizer, the amount of fuel, the amount of this, the amount of that, the rent, and utility payments. You collect all that. Why wouldn't you also collect the accounting costs, since we know they're onerous? Why wouldn't you collect this information, too, to find out how much this program is costing?
I did some simple numbers here. With $107 million to run your department and 150,000 applications, it costs you over $700 per application to process. But you don't know how much it costs a farmer to process.
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
First of all, just for the record--and I would be happy to share this with the committee--the CAIS application form was six pages long and included very complicated information.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Now, though, it is a one-page application form. We have revised it, and we have put that out.
I don't know if we can get the actual costs or if people would disclose that kind of information. I don't think you write on your tax form how much your accountant charged you. So I don't know if it's appropriate to ask them the question.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Mr. Chairman, I beg to differ. Accounting costs per farm is a tax-deductible expense. They are right in there on the.... There's no big deal to put a line on the form to find out exactly what it's costing farmers, since we know it costs them a great deal to find out what it is.
Now, this is where I find this amateurish attitude by the department. They say, “We're okay. We don't worry about the farmers.” We've heard about this “Let's go after the overpayments, but don't worry about the underpayments.” We know this has been an extremely complex, onerous application for farmers, and yet you haven't bothered to find out what it's costing farmers. In some cases they fill out forms that generate nothing in return. Why?
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
We'll examine the possibility of asking for that information, sir. We will look at it to see if we have it in the department. I am not aware of it.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Okay. There are a lot of things we don't seem to be aware of in the department. Mr. Hubbard's question about what percentage is going to what percentage.... Like the agribusiness people--are they getting 90% of the money? This kind of information should be at your fingertips, I would have thought.
In terms of the conflict of interest, you mentioned in your opening statement, Madam Deputy Minister, that some people had been reporting this conflict. Did anybody do anything about it before the Auditor General pointed out to you that you shouldn't be doing this?
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
That was in the Auditor General's report.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
No. You indicated in your opening statement that you were aware people were working under the table or had a moonlighting business here. My question is, since you were aware before the Auditor General's report, hadn't you thought that maybe you should do something about this?
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Absolutely, sir, and it wasn't done. That's why it's--
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
It wasn't done.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
So they were reporting on a conflict of interest, and everybody said that was fine.
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
I don't know if they said it was fine, but no action was taken.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Have you audited the returns that were prepared by these people in a conflict of interest?
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
The five employees who--
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
All the files that they prepared and submitted to generate returns--have you audited each and every one to find out if they were accurate?
April 1st, 2008 / 12:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Farm Financial Programs Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Not each and every one, but we have reviewed some files.
12:05 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Farm Financial Programs Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
I couldn't give you an exact percentage.