Evidence of meeting #23 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was farmers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
What happens if they were in a conflict and maybe generating an extra payment so that...? Mind you, you went after the extra payments. What happens if they were underclaiming for their client but...? Were you the client or was the farmer the client?
12:10 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Farm Financial Programs Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
I would like to clarify. All program payments are reviewed--100% of them--by the administration.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
No, that wasn't my point. My point was that here we have a small number of departmental officials who are moonlighting and sending in forms for their own department to assess. That's a conflict of interest.
Where there's a conflict of interest, Mr. Chairman, you up the audit function to make sure nothing inappropriate was going on. Did this idea cross your mind?
12:10 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Farm Financial Programs Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
It had come to our attention that this was happening--
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
No. My point was, did you increase the audit supervision of these files to ensure that nothing untoward was done?
April 1st, 2008 / 12:10 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Farm Financial Programs Branch, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
We actually asked them to stop--
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
We looked at a sample--
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
I don't know how big the sample was.
They looked at the files, sir. One thing, to be clear--
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I want you to go back and audit every one that was done by these five employees.
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Well, in the Auditor General's report--and maybe they can comment on this one--they said there was no proof of wrongdoing.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I'm sorry, I must belabour the point. Here you have a conflict of interest, people working both sides of the fence on a very complex arrangement. They're filling out forms that generate a cheque from the government, which is their own employer.
You find out. First of all, you are aware it was a conflict of interest. You say, that's no big deal; let them continue on. The Auditor General says you shouldn't do this. You say, okay, maybe it's not a bad idea that they stop. You didn't go back to audit the files they submitted because they were in a conflict of interest.
I want an assurance from you that you will audit each and every one. There are only five employees; there can't be that many files. I want an assurance from you. Can I have an assurance from you?
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
We will give you an assurance, sir. Let me look at it to see if we have information as to which files they have processed, and then we will write back to the committee, sir.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you, Mr. Williams.
Before we go to the second round, I have an issue I want to pursue with you, Deputy, and this involves the change in the procedure that took place within the department for, I believe, the 2004 crop year.
According to the auditor's report, the change in the procedure or the policies took place after approximately 20% of the CAIS applications were filed and processed. The change in the procedure led to an increase in eligibility for the CAIS payments, and in one case identified by the auditor, the farm applicant received an additional $90,000 because of the change in the procedure, which was good. It was substantial.
My concern and the concern that was raised within the auditor's report is that the 20% who had already filed and had their applications processed based upon the old rules most likely left an underpayment on the table. To be fair and equitable to all farm communities, I would have liked to see—and I didn't see it identified—that for the 20% who actually filed and had their applications processed, the department would go back and take each and every one of them so that these farmers, if they were in fact eligible for an additional payment, would have received the payment.
Has that been done?
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Yes, we have reviewed it. It was identified in the Auditor General's report. At the time the report was written, 20% had been processed. We have reviewed 11,930 files, which was the 20%, and 182 applications were in an underpayment situation, and the farmers have been paid.
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
I am satisfied that we have dealt with the situation. As errors occur, we go back to recalculate, because the moment the error is found, whichever moment you're in, you not only have to fix it going forward, but you have to go back to recalculate, and it's been done in this case.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much.
We're going to now proceed to the second round, four minutes, colleagues.
Mr. Hubbard, four minutes.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Just to follow up on Mr. Williams' questioning, I thought there were more. You said a maximum of 20 employees were involved in assisting farmers. Only 20, fewer than 20?
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
There were fewer than 20.
12:10 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
There were fewer than 20. Did that include provincial employees in agricultural departments?
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
No, sir, this is only regarding CAIS employees. In our report we cite—