Public Accounts Committee on April 15th, 2008

[Michael Small, Assistant Deputy Minister, Human Resources, Department of Foreign Affairs]

We're asking to have them by later this year.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Because circumstances differ from country to country, are you able to delegate a reasonable amount of authority to the heads of missions to actually make some decisions regarding locally engaged staff, or is it all so centralized that they can't do a darn thing?

[Leonard Edwards]

You raise a very good question. This is one thing we're looking at right now. We have a group that is reviewing how we manage locally engaged staff.

My personal view is that we have tended to over-centralize and that we probably need to do something on a more regional basis perhaps, because of the local conditions, in terms of employment and so on. I think what we need at the centre are some common rules and guidelines and so forth on how to manage staff, and a common caring environment so that locally engaged staff see themselves as a critical piece of our human resources and a key piece of our department and our department's success.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I agree, and if we trust our ambassadors and high commissioners to represent Canada abroad, I think we can trust them with a reasonable amount of human resource management too, so they can make these decisions locally.

For example, you mentioned in your own report, Mr. Edwards, that there are 23 different handbooks in the United States alone. I know it's not your problem, because you're relatively new to your position as well, but how on earth did this ever happen? We had 23 different handbooks with 23 different sets of rules just for the United States, Mr. Chairman, which, out of all the countries, has to be as close as possible to us in the way it does its business. I can't imagine how moribund the human resources management has become.

The Auditor General's report, getting back to HR, in paragraph 3.33 says, “We found no clear link between recruitment levels and long-range planning, demographic analysis, or vacancy-trend analysis”. Now, are these issues going to get resolved?

[Leonard Edwards]

Mr. Chairman, these are being dealt with and are dealt with in this plan, and indeed they are being resolved. We now have in this plan projections of our needs and so forth.

Now, let me add a little caveat on that. Because of our transformation, because of the strategic review we've just gone through, there are going to be some changes, and those changes will now need to be put into this and updated. So I think--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I don't have a problem with changes as long as they're tied to a strategic plan, a long-range point of view and so on, rather than just being ad hoc, such as having somebody who quit yesterday and having to fill the job tomorrow, and not knowing what to do.

I am concerned about the fact that it's taken you a long time to get authority from the Treasury Board regarding accidental death and dismemberment insurance for the staff in Afghanistan.

The reason I ask, Mr. Chairman, is that unfortunately, as we all know, we lost one of the foreign service officers in Afghanistan. I'm wondering if his family was able to benefit from whatever changes have been made to the accidental death and dismemberment; or are we talking about people who, unfortunately, are killed or injured on the front line?

What happened with that particular foreign service officer, Mr. Edwards? Is he going to get the benefit of sacrificing his life for Canada?

[Leonard Edwards]

I'll have to seek clarification on that. I can't answer your question. My impression is that this occurred, unfortunately, before this plan was put into place. But I believe there was a settlement worked out with his family.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Do you feel it was in line with the current policy? I'd like to know that it's in line with the current policy and deemed to be adequate and fair, because our soldiers are doing a very difficult job, and our foreign service people are doing a very difficult job in a very dangerous area.

My next point is that you've made this arrangement for Afghanistan and Kandahar, but does that apply if there's a flare-up or trouble anywhere else in the world?

[Leonard Edwards]

It would apply just to Afghanistan and, I believe, to Iraq if there was an incident there. For the time being, it applies just to those areas, but we will see how it performs, and it could well be applied elsewhere if it's needed.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I would certainly ask that you give some serious thought, Mr. Edwards, to ensuring that we have adequate death and dismemberment insurance for our Canadians abroad who are putting their lives on the line anywhere. I don't think it's appropriate that we restrict it to specific places that we know after the fact are dangerous. There may be dangers in other hot spots around the world that haven't been classified as such, and I'd like to know that we are going to address these issues for our staff.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I believe the Auditor General has a comment, Mr. Williams.

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, I think it's important the members realize that the department itself does not have the authority to do this, that it's Treasury Board, and that the department was seeking that authority for over a year before it got it. So I think we should be fair to the deputy, and you might want to ask the Treasury Board Secretariat representatives a few questions about what they're doing on foreign service directives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

That will have to wait for another round.

Thank you, Mr. Williams.

Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'd like to ask a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'm sure you would. In the next round, Mr. Williams.

We're going to go to the second round, but I have a question for you, Mr. Edwards, and you may want to comment, Madame Laurendeau.

It seems to me this report is indicative of a problem within the Government of Canada, and I think the auditors point out that you're probably not the only department that has this human resources and recruiting issue they're facing.

You've been around Ottawa a long time--I believe you came as the Deputy Minister of Agriculture--and there seems to be a problem. Most people, I think it's over 80%, start in the public service either as a temp or on contract. Whether the system is broken or not, they don't seem to be able to recruit, and it takes about eight or nine months to fill a job if you have a job opening. This is going to get worse because we have an aging workforce. The statistics the auditor gave vis-à-vis your department, I think, are reflected right across every department in Ottawa. You probably also saw that in Agriculture when you were there. Is this a problem that's being discussed at the deputy minister level?

Also, Madame Laurendeau, do you have any comments on this? I think this is probably one of the biggest issues facing government operations: the difficulties in recruiting, the large percentage of people who start as temporary or on contract, and then of course that leads to acting people, vacancies, and the whole problem you're seeing right across the force.

Do you have any comments, Mr. Edwards?

[Leonard Edwards]

I have a very quick comment.

First of all, I think this is very much at the top of the list of the Clerk of the Privy Council and the deputy community generally under public service renewal, the challenges we face as a public service and bringing in the very best people for what we believe is one of the great careers you can have in Canada. And we simply have to do better to make access to that career quicker, easier, and to make it a career full of challenge going forward.

I would suggest perhaps you should ask that question to some other deputies who are involved very much in this public service renewal effort.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Do you have any comment, madame?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

I would echo what Mr. Edwards is saying. There is certainly a big push through PS renewal to make sure all DMs in town are seized with this problem. The colleagues from the portfolio, the Canada Public Service Agency, also have been leading the way in making sure there is an alignment of HR planning and business planning, of which the prime example is the new plan Mr. Edwards got for his own department.

There is definitely an awareness through the exercise led by the Clerk of the Privy Council, and action is definitely being taken to make sure this problem is addressed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bélanger, you have four minutes.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Ms. Laurendeau, I have a few questions for you about the mandate of the interdepartmental committee.

You said in your remarks that the mandate had been approved. When and by whom?

[Hélène Laurendeau]

It was approved quite recently—at the beginning of the year—by the committee itself and the deputy ministers in place.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

The committee has met twice, so it has been in place for about three months.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

Correct.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

So in the document you circulated, the word “proposed” should be deleted, because the mandate has not only been proposed, but approved.

[Hélène Laurendeau]

It has been approved and is in effect.