Public Accounts Committee on May 1st, 2008

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to pass this on to Mr. McGuinty.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

On the insistence of my colleagues from the Conservatives to answer the question about what happened in ten years, this is the government public accounts committee--

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

On a point of order, this is a parliamentary public accounts committee, not a government public accounts committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You can say “government”; it's the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Well, let's just get the terminology.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Williams. Great.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You're welcome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay, one speaker. Mr. McGuinty has the floor.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

Absolutely. We were busy cleaning up the financial mess left by the last Conservative government and delivered up a $13 billion surplus to this government--before it so acutely and so competently squandered it.

To the witnesses, I'd like to pose a theoretical question. If there were a new PCO-driven implementation strategy that set caps on emissions by sector and region and that instructed departments on which economic instruments to use preferably, based on evidence--not ideology but evidence--and if there were real penalties for non-compliance, if there were an ecosystem-based management approach designed for the departments and full-cost accounting with timelines for meeting each target, and if there were a clear indication of which person was responsible for implementing the strategy, can you tell me, would that not help Canadians achieve their green procurement objectives?

I don't understand how the environment department can take the lead on this, Mr. Shugart. I think what we're doing here is setting up the environment department to become the “enviro-cop”. Frankly, I don't know if the environment department, as a science-based department, has the suasion--moral suasion or any other instrument or power at its disposal--to convince other much larger departments, central agencies, and others to actually achieve these targets.

[Ian Shugart]

Mr. Chairman, I'll do my best.

I indicated at the beginning the four roles that Environment Canada plays with respect to greening government operations. Our role for sustainable development strategies is somewhat comparable to my colleague's department's role in procurement and greening government operations.

All I can say directly to the question, as Mr. McGuinty has asked it, is that as public servants we will comply with whatever regime of governance is established. The report for sustainable development strategies that we're undertaking now will, on the recommendation of the commissioner, address those issues.

[David McGuinty, Liberal, Ottawa South, ON]

But would this help?

[Ian Shugart]

I can't answer that directly; it's theoretical. It's not my prerogative to put in place any particular system.

What I would say is that the level of target setting, the measurement of targets, the analysis of how best to achieve them, and the measurement on performance are the elements that we have to come to grips with, as the commissioner has laid out, under whatever system of governance we are assigned as a department.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. McGuinty. Thank you, Mr. Shugart.

Mr. Lake, you have the last slot.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I'm going to resist the urge to respond to Mr. McGuinty. Instead I'll move to Ms. Meredith.

You looked like you wanted to maybe say something with regard to what Mr. Shugart said in response to Mr. Wrzesnewskyj's first comment, or you kind of alluded to the fact that you might have something to add there.

[Daphne Meredith]

I was supporting his latter point about progress in these areas. It is a changing world, with changing technologies, so expertise is going to be critical toward making progress. That's the kind of supportive leadership that I think we're ready to play for departments.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

The last point is just to give you one final opportunity to close things off. I'll go back again to Mr. Thompson's opening statement about what we may wish to ask you about in terms of the progress you're making. He talked about the progress in strengthening guidance for building energy, vehicle fleet emissions and green procurement, and expanding guidance to cover other areas such as waste management.

So just to wrap things up, I'll give you the chance to give a final word on what he was asking us, I guess, to ask you.

[Daphne Meredith]

I'd like to go back to his point on progress. I think we've made progress. Is it ever enough? No, it's not ever enough. But I think we're positioned to deal with the departments and to engage them really constructively over the next year to 18 months, as I mentioned.

I think we've made good progress in some of the greening of our buildings. In LEED gold, we're leaders. Parks Canada, for example, has a platinum building on Vancouver Island. There are only ten in the world. So you find initiative being taken. We can take stock of that. We can talk to other departments about potential in their buildings to do the same thing.

At Public Works we're committed to an LEED gold standard. That's a very high standard. Actually, just the other day the Jean Canfield building was opened in Charlottetown. I think that gets to the culture point you're talking about, that these buildings, built to that kind of high standard of environmental stewardship, can be an inspiration not only to others in government but also to the employees who work there and the community itself.

So there's never enough progress, perhaps, but there is progress there. We'll look at what has been made, we'll take account of best practices, we'll feed it into the next round of advice to departments and the guidance we give them, and I think we'll end up with a good, solid set of sustainable development strategies for 2009 to 2012.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Mr. Thompson, would it be safe to say that you're encouraged--I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll let you wrap up--by at least the direction that we seem to be moving in?

[Ron Thompson]

Mr. Chairman, through you to Mr. Lake, yes, I am, actually. I think this hearing has been a very good hearing to shine a spotlight on a very important issue for this government. The other witnesses at the table certainly are working in an area that is important, and seem to be making progress. Mind you, the devil is in the details, so we'll have to see.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would just add two or three concluding thoughts. I do think we're poised to make a quantum leap forward. I think there's a very great need to have a driver for this greening of government operation. The chairman mentioned that earlier, and I certainly agree. When you think of that, PWGSC, in testimony today, indicated that they've been given the leadership role; if TBS, a very powerful central agency, can join them, that's a pretty potent driver. So we'll see whether that works out.

Clear expectations, I think, are needed, both for the government overall and for individual departments and agencies. As I understand it, there are expectations being developed now. There's a perfect opportunity to communicate those throughout government through the next round of special examinations guidance. So that's a good sign.

Lastly, we really have to know whether these expectations are being met. There must be some kind of public reporting. We've heard today that there is every indication, I think, to do the public reporting, hopefully in a more aggressive and more open way, through the departmental performance reports.

So a lot can be done with existing structures and existing people. I'm just very hopeful that with the support of this committee, that quantum leap will be made.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Lake. Thank you, Mr. Thompson.

That concludes our time, colleagues. I have a couple of things I want to comment on.

First of all, I do want to say, Ms. Meredith, that the Charlottetown building you mentioned really is a state-of-the-art environmental building, which is a credit to your department. I've had the tour, and other people have been in. It's something that I'm sure your department is extremely proud of.

Before I say anything else, I want to thank you, Mr. Thompson, for all your service in this job. I understand a new commissioner has been appointed. He takes his place sometime soon, I think.

[Ron Thompson]

Monday morning.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Monday morning! So this will be your last appearance before a parliamentary committee, I assume, in this capacity. On behalf of the House of Commons and this committee, we want to thank you for your service over the last period of time.

Mr. Williams.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Thompson is actually retiring, I believe, from the public service after a long and distinguished career. Prior to his position as interim commissioner for the environment, he was an assistant auditor general. I worked with him for many years, since I came down here in 1993.

I want to wish Mr. Thompson a long and happy retirement.

[Ron Thompson]

Thank you very much, sir.

[Voices]

Hear, hear!