Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
We have constantly said here that we want to have witnesses give fulsome answers. If you beat the witness and cut him off and don't allow him to give a fulsome answer, then it's exactly counterproductive to the operation of this committee.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
On a point of order, Chair, how is he supposed to remember whether he changed a word on page 11 of a 400-page document?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
He can answer that himself, Mr. Poilievre.
Mr. Hubbard, the floor is yours.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
With this task, Mr. McPhie, you talked about over 400 pages that you reviewed; this was the job you had. It was prepared by the finance department, by their communications people, and then it came to you to see whether it was clear and acceptable to your minister, the minister you were working for, and to the Canadian public. Is that the task you had?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
Among many. We developed a comprehensive strategy with respect to the budget related to communications. We were heavily involved in project management. As you can imagine, the liaison of all the different products that were produced—
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
My time is limited, and I don't want to get into those kinds of details.
If the written document was not acceptable to you, did you rewrite it, or did you send it back to the staff for rewriting?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
It would have been a combination thereof, and I'll try to give a specific example.
We would be presented with materials, and materials would be circulated among the minister's office staff. Part of the role we played was to consolidate their feedback and ensure that it was then subsequently provided to the department.
But again, sir, I want to emphasize that we did a whole lot of stuff over the course of our work, and it was an extensive and—
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
Well, I'm a little bit confused, because we had 60 people, the deputy minister said, working on the budget speech. I don't think, in terms of the budget speech, that you were the expert. We have thousands of people working in the finance department who prepare a speech, but they came to you to see whether it could be communicated to suit the deputy minister or minister—apparently it was the minister—and that seemed to be the role.
I'm not clear, either, that you went across the country to five places. Did you personally cross the country with the minister?
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you, Mr. Hubbard.
Thank you, Mr. McPhie.
Now we move to Mr. Fitzpatrick for the last seven minutes. Mr. Fitzpatrick.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
If I can use some of the words of Mr. Christopherson, I certainly hope neither one of you aided and abetted Bob Rae when he was in charge of the province of Ontario in managing the public finance at that time. I'll open with that comment.
Mr. Wright was here earlier, and basically, I think he gave you a pretty high endorsement, Mr. McPhie, the way I would interpret it. He was very impressed with your work, not just on this project but on previous projects. I think it was also his view that there were probably many more hours put into this project that weren't billed for, and that would be my impression as well.
I want to correct something here, just to get the record perfectly clear. Out of your group that was working in Ottawa, how many people would you say were working full-time on the project?
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
McPhie & Company had two staff working on Budget 2007. As I said at the outset, and as honourable members appreciate, it is a massive undertaking. You don't have a lot of time to go from what your inputs are to your result.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
But just to correct some mathematics that were presented by Mr. McCallum—I don't know whether his banking background is with the subprime or the Enron—you had two people involved on this project for 45 days of intense work. Even if they only worked 10 hours a day for that period of time, we'd be talking about 900 hours, which would be a very modest amount. I get the impression there were days, especially toward the end, when people were working maybe 15 to 18 hours on this project, and on Sundays as well.
Am I correct in my interpretation of these events?
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
So maybe the record will correct the misinterpretation that Mr. McCallum was trying to impose on the group.
I've practised law for 25 years, and even when I left law in Saskatchewan, the going rate, the average rate, would have been in the region of $250 an hour. In Ottawa, I think you're looking at $350 or $400. If we have a public inquiry, I'm sure there are going to be many lawyers in that public inquiry who will be wearing thousand-dollar suits, who will be charging anywhere from $500 to $1,000 an hour for their time.
Have you any idea, if you charged your full time at $250 an hour, how much you would have billed? All the time too, including the stuff that wasn't billed.
12:55 p.m.
As an Individual
I can tell the committee we are very confident we provided superb value for money to the taxpayers of Canada, the Government of Canada.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Thank you, sir.
Another misrepresentation that has been going on here, which has been repeated and repeated over and over again--I think it's shameful, because people should know better.... You were involved in the preparation, the communication, the budget, from start to finish. You had a lot of tasks involved with that, but certain people have constantly said you billed $122,000 for the preparation of one speech, which I think is a total bunch of nonsense and a total misrepresentation of the facts.
What have you got to say about that?
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I think both deputy ministers, the Treasury Board secretary and the deputy finance minister, made it quite clear that this budget process thing is a fairly demanding process. Time is of the essence. Privacy issues are involved. It's a very, very intense issue, and Deputy Minister Wright said it's a judgment call from the minister's office about who's engaged in that process. Really, you don't have a lot of time to go through all the regular processes that go on in government. You've got to take the bull by the horns and get the job done.
Did you personally find this a very demanding and challenging task?
1 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Right. What about you, Ms. Mintz? Did you find this a very challenging and demanding job?
1 p.m.
As an Individual
Absolutely. And you know, as a lawyer, there are lots of times you find your tasks challenging, particularly when preparing for court. This was quite different. This was quite extraordinary, leading up to the budget, 18 days straight of work.