Public Accounts Committee on March 12th, 2009

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

So then, you are aware of the costs in terms of the health of the inmates in your custody.

On another subject, regarding investments in infrastructures, I'd like to revisit the issue of water contamination, water pipes in certain facilities and lead contamination. Has federal government funding made it possible to correct these problems which affect federal facilities?

[Don Head]

I'm not sure, Mr. Chair, that I mentioned that at all, but in terms of the issues around water quality, we manage and monitor that on a regular basis. For example, in places where water is drawn from wells, we respect the normal protocols for having water tested on a regular basis.

In cases where we have problems with city or municipally supplied water, we respond accordingly when problems are brought to our attention.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Are there any facilities that are still operating under boil-water notices?

[Don Head]

At this point, I'm not aware of any of our institutions that are on boil—

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Could you look into this and let us know if the problems have been corrected?

[Don Head]

Most definitely.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Could you also provide us with a summary of the state of repair of your water treatment facilities? I know that a number of these facilities are quite old. Could you provide the committee with information on the state of your drinking and wastewater facilities and how you manage them?

My other question concerns employees, specifically Correctional Service officers. Statistics show that the absenteeism rate among correctional officers has increased significantly, along with the number of sick leave days taken. Percentage wise, what kind of increase are we looking at?

[Don Head]

For our correctional officers, the latest statistic we have is that they use, on average, 17 days of sick leave per year. We've seen some changes over the last couple of years as a result of some of the new provisions that were in the collective agreement. As a result of some changes a few years ago, once a correctional officer has used the 15 days of sick leave they have that they can accumulate in a fiscal year, there's an opportunity to actually earn an additional two days in the year. We've seen a trend where, in some cases, correctional officers are using up their 15 days and using the additional two days as well.

But we also know that in some cases, not all cases, some of the use of sick leave is associated with staff being involved in incidents where they have been assaulted in the institutions, where there has been a major incident and there's a level of stress associated with certain staff members after that incident, whether it be a hostage-taking or a major riot. So we have seen an increase over the last few years.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I have one last question. You were just talking about assaults on correctional officers. Obviously, their working conditions are very difficult. I'm curious as to whether you have followed up on one request in particular, namely that inmates be tested to determine if they are HIV positive or if they suffer from any diseases. Sometimes, inmates will spit in the face of an officer. Officers come into contact with bodily fluids. Inmates will spit on, bite and even urinate on correctional officers. Has the federal government followed up on their request to test inmates who do this or something similar to determine if they are infected with a serious disease?

[Don Head]

One of the recommendations that was made in the review panel's report was for the government to look at mandatory testing of all offenders coming into the federal correctional system. That doesn't occur right now, because that requires legislative change.

So our practice has been and continues to be, until there is any legislative change in that area, to subject all staff members who have been exposed to bodily fluids or excrement to the universal protocols for protection. That requires them attending the hospital, being subjected to the various “cocktails”, as they're referred to, to potentially combat any issues of infection.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

So then, you do expose your employees to certain health risks?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Merci beaucoup.

Mr. Christopherson, you have seven minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Head, for being here today.

I have to say, when I read the report, both initially and then in more detail, my past came back to haunt me, given that in another life I used to be responsible for the Ontario prison system. I don't know about now, but at that time the Ontario system alone was equal to the entire federal system. It's probably relatively the same.

Two things struck me. One was, I have to admit, a great deal of sympathy because of the challenges faced by that ministry. It's different from any other part of government, and the pressures are enormous. When the money is not there to meet the challenges, those are hellish decisions to make.

I'm not going to be as over the top as I normally am, because that is going to constrain me. It's my experience; you can't go against that. It's a tough ministry to run.

However, I do want to bring forward that in paragraph 7.77 of the Auditor General's report, the first sentence says:

We found that CSC focuses much of its effort on safety and security. It does not pay sufficient attention to economy and efficiency.

You know what? If we have to have a problem, I'm glad it's that way. I am glad this audit didn't show that you're really good at buying the clothes and really good at buying the food and lousy at security and lousy at safety.

I say that with great experience, because I remember that Mike Harris' government privatized one of the youth detention centres and turned it into a boot camp. The night before the grand opening, with the ribbon ready to cut, there was a breakout. The first thing they had to do was call in the public sector correctional workers to secure the place and go and find the prisoners who had escaped.

I say that because we know this government has an interest and is salivating a bit at the system and would love to privatize it.

The biggest growth industry in the United States is building prisons....

Pardon me?

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Can we have a question, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Move on.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

When you have your time, you can say whatever you want, my friend, and I'll listen. I would ask you to do the same.

My first question actually is to the Auditor General. Before we get into the specifics of what the report says, I have a couple of questions.

One of the benefits of buying locally is food safety, which is a big issue. If you get food safety wrong, you're instantly poisoning how many thousands of people? So buying locally is something that more and more people are going to because of that security. Also it's local jobs. These institutions are often one of the biggest economic engines, in rural areas in particular, and if you take away their local purchasing it's going to affect the community. How much do we need to think about that in an economic sense?

Then there are the environmental costs of shipping food and products from wherever to these locations. How much of that did you factor in, and what's your sense of how that holds up against the money that you think could be saved?

[Hugh McRoberts]

We expected that CSC's management would have factored that into the type of analysis that we would have expected they had done. Our expectation was that management would have been looking at its cost structures, would have been discussing with industry—food delivery being one example, but the other industries as well—what are the delivery options, and frankly, what are the benefits of costs associated with different options?

Certainly we would have expected that local business issues versus national issues, all of those issues, would have been on the table in the type of analysis that we would have expected to see, but which simply were not there.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

So it's the absence of that and everything else being considered? Okay.

Then how about that, Mr. Head? How do those things factor in, or do you still have to do that? Give me your thoughts on that, please, sir.

[Don Head]

We're still looking at or assessing the information. We are, as I indicated in my opening comments, going to look at issues as they relate to local purchases, that is, at a local supply. We know, for example, that we have some issues.... I'll just use Kingston as an example. As is known by some of the members, Kingston is very much a prison town, with several penitentiaries in the immediate area. As this relates to items such as food and staff, those kinds of things, there are millions of dollars available or that are used in the local economy. We're going to look at and weigh that as we go forward.

But again, for those who are familiar with a correctional system, there are a few things that will result in a very quick riot, and one of them is poor food or bad food. If we don't get this formula right as we go forward, I'll be spending all of my savings on repairing my institutions.

Having said that, again, we do agree with the Auditor General's report that we can get smarter, we can get better at looking at how we purchase certain things, and even simple things, such as an approach to national menus—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay, thank you, I don't mean to be rude in interrupting you, but I'm just on a short time.

The Auditor General mentioned in paragraph 7.78—and the information is coming from you—that you've curtailed some programs in order to balance your budget. What sorts of programs have you already curtailed?

[Don Head]

At the time of the audit, those would have been a variety of programs, ranging from substance abuse programs to some violence prevention programs. They weren't curtailed outright; what happened is that there would not necessarily have been as many programs running in a given fiscal year.

This was obviously a major concern for us, because our primary business is about rehabilitating offenders. So at the time of the audit, again, we were faced with many challenges around our budget, and local wardens had to make decisions in terms of balancing security, programs, and other issues.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I imagine you didn't do that with great enthusiasm, because, as you say, as soon as you curtail those programs, beyond the warehousing aspect, we're losing what is supposed to be a progressive part of what corrections is. It isn't supposed to be just punishment.

With the money that you would save, do you have the latitude to put it back into those programs, or are you still facing other budget challenges to meet your current goals in this strategic expenditure review?

[Don Head]

Again, as a result of the infusion of moneys through Budget 2007-08, and as a result of some re-investment through the strategic review process, we're actually in a position now to expand programs in some key areas—not in every single area, but in some key areas, particularly programs for lifers, and violence prevention programs, substance abuse programs, and violence prevention programs for those serving short sentences, which is a problem. If they're coming in within a short period of time and we don't have the right kind of program, they're going out with nothing.

We also received some money to allow us to advance the yardsticks around aboriginal programming, which, again, is not going to resolve all of our problems, but has moved the yardsticks significantly. So we're in a much better position to maintain our program delivery.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Christopherson, and thank you, Mr. Head.

Mr. Saxton, you have seven minutes.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, gentlemen, for being here today.

There are some serious issues raised in this report, and I thank the Auditor General for bringing them to our attention. Specifically, there are some serious concerns regarding overtime and inefficiencies.

You certainly have your work cut out for you, Mr. Head. However, I am pleased to see there is an action plan and the agency is taking this seriously, because these are serious problems.

My first question is regarding the overtime situation. In the November report I noticed that the Auditor General stated that there were good processes in place. However, now in this report, which examines the situation back to 2004, there are serious concerns. I'm just interested to know why there is a discrepancy between the two. One says there are processes in place and the other one says there are serious concerns.

Are you aware of that, Mr. Head?