Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was overtime.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
For my friend opposite, I think it's important to note—you were talking about dealing with problems—that corrections officers went for three years without a contract under the Liberal government, and that's a very stressful thing. They're already in very stressful jobs, and that added to it.
It sounds to me as though sick leave days are directly related to your overtime costs. Somebody calls in sick and you have to call somebody in on overtime. Is that correct?
Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada
For the most part, yes, it is. If everything were equal—all our positions were fully staffed, all our rosters properly balanced, our post deployment scenarios in place—we have the ability through our substitute officers to cover a certain level of leave, which not only includes sick leave but annual leave and family related leave.
Conservative
Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON
It's been my experience that overtime is not just a money cost, and it's not just a matter of people calling in sick or working overtime. Sometimes it's because you should be hiring more officers, for example. Do you have part-time officers?
Conservative
Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON
No, so it can be managed with hiring other officers. Then it becomes a training issue. Then you have all these other issues with people under stress that you have to deal with.
I want to back up to something else you said, which I'm very interested in. How much does a stab-proof vest cost?
Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada
At this point I think we've purchased.... I'd have to get back to you with the exact number. We've equipped our maximum security institutions, so there are probably about 1,500 there, and our medium security institutions.... We're probably getting up to about 3,000 or 4,000 vests that we're buying, and we'll probably be equipping all the others over subsequent years.
Conservative
Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON
We have people come before this committee all the time, and they often say, “We're waiting for this new software system, and once we get this software system online, then we're going to have things under control”. I'm sure it's true. I'm sure the software is going to help make a difference, and you'll have consistent systems at all the institutions, etc.
In the meanwhile, there are things you could do, hopefully. Could you tell us what you've been doing to manage the overtime issues—the human issues around overtime—in the meanwhile?
Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada
One of the things is cleaning up what we call our roll calls, the actual paper lists of staff who are supposed to be on shift, and better recording of the staff who are coming in and the ones who are not coming in. The old paper and pencil process has been cleaned up. That is linked to our deployment standards. We now have better standardization in that area.
As well, there's the whole issue of just recording the overtime by shift in the institutions and by the immediate reason that presents itself: was this because somebody phoned in sick, because somebody was on annual leave, because we had to send an inmate to an outside hospital? We're using a better, consistent, refined paper and pencil process right now, until the automated system—
Conservative
Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON
Does that help you record the leaves too to get control of your personnel?
Conservative
Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON
My other concern about the overtime thing is the human cost. People are in stressful situations, people are incarcerated, and then employees get tired. When employees get tired, their patience is lower and tempers can flare.
How much of the management side of your overtime is due to...for instance, you mentioned crises or emergency, or...what did you say, emergency escorts? How does that affect the overtime costs?
Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada
It plays into it. For example, if we have an inmate who slashes up or does serious self-harm and has to go to an outside hospital, because we do not have staff sitting around in the institution waiting for that to happen, we will send staff who are on duty right now to take that inmate down to the hospital. But we then have to call in staff on overtime to backfill, so that we're not jeopardizing the overall safety or security of the institution while those personnel are outside.
Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada
It could be at time and a half; it could be at double time.
Conservative
Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada
There are different scenarios for it, in terms of how many hours you worked or whether you're on a second day of rest. There are specific clauses that we have to respect in the collective agreement.
Conservative
Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON
Wouldn't it be smarter, sometimes, to have an extra person on staff?
Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada
Sometimes that occurs, when we have the substitute officers. But because, as I mentioned earlier, we've been running with a significant number of vacancies across the country, we haven't even had the substitute officers available to backfill.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Young.
Mr. Desnoyers, do you have a point of clarification?
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Mr. Head, you may just have confirmed it for me. During our last exchange, I talked about the overtime worked at the different institutions. More staff and more overtime may be needed at some of the older facilities as compared to the newer establishments like the one in Sept-Îles where staffing levels are adequate. When the issue was raised, you appeared to be nodding your head. I simply wanted some clarification. You've just confirmed to Mr. Young that additional staff would be needed. Is that correct?
Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada
Yes, and again it depends on the scenario whether the roster is full and all the vacancies filled. A place, for example, such as Sept-Îles has fewer posts than a place like Kingston Penitentiary. Everything being equal, if I have staff who book off at Kingston Pen.... I may not even have that kind of post at Sept-Îles; therefore, I would never incur the overtime at Sept-Îles, but I would at Kingston Pen because I have many more posts that have to be covered on the shift.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
I simply want some assurances that the government is not merely making some false savings and that because of the overtime worked, the safety of correctional officers is not being compromised.
I do not believe that the Auditor General has really delved into all aspects of this issue, as you and Mr. Young have described them.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I have just one point on that, Mr. Head. It seems to me that you are operating in Kingston with a 165-year-old facility, as you say.