Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I call the meeting to order.

On behalf of all members of the committee, I want to welcome all the witnesses here today.

The meeting was called pursuant to the Standing Orders to deal with chapter 7, emergency management, Public Safety Canada, of the fall 2009 Report of the Auditor General of Canada.

The committee is very pleased to have with us this afternoon, from the Office of the Auditor General of Canada, of course the Auditor herself, Sheila Fraser. She's accompanied by Wendy Loschiuk, Assistant Auditor General; and Gordon Stock, Principal.

From the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness we have Mr. William Baker, the Deputy Minister and Accounting Officer. He's accompanied by Mr. Myles Kirvan, the Associate Deputy Minister; and Daniel Lavoie, the Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Ssecurity Branch.

From the Privy Council Office we have Stéphane Larue, Director of Operations, Security and Intelligence.

Again, welcome, everyone.

We'll start with opening statements. Ms. Fraser, you have five minutes.

Thank you very much.

[Sheila Fraser, Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We thank you for this opportunity to discuss chapter 7 of our fall 2009 report on emergency management at Public Safety Canada.

As you mentioned, I'm accompanied today by Wendy Loschiuk, assistant auditor general, and Gordon Stock, principal. They are responsible for our audits of national security and public safety. This audit examines emergency management, and in particular the coordination role of Public Safety Canada.

I would like to start by saying that we are pleased with the responses of Public Safety Canada and the Privy Council Office to the recommendations noted in our chapter. They have agreed with each of the recommendations addressed to them, and have committed to taking corrective action.

Let me also emphasize that we recognize that the role of Public Safety Canada is very challenging. In 2003, Public Safety Canada was created to coordinate an overall federal approach for emergency management in an environment where departments have traditionally managed their own responses to emergencies within their respective mandates. Today, however, emergencies such as floods or forest fires, or human-induced events such as power blackouts or cyber attacks, could quickly outstrip the ability of an individual department to respond. The emergency could also quickly escalate beyond a single department's mandate.

In 2007 the Emergency Management Act was enacted to improve coordination on the part of the federal government, in cooperation with provinces and municipalities, by clarifying the leadership role of Public Safety Canada, as well as the responsibilities of other departments for emergency management.

We found that Public Safety Canada has had difficulty exercising the leadership necessary to ensure that federal emergency management activities are coordinated.

It has taken the necessary first steps by drafting the interim Federal Emergency Response Plan—a framework that outlines a decision-making process to be used to coordinate emergency response activities.

However, we found that work on developing this plan has been ongoing since 2004, and it has not yet been formally approved by the government or endorsed by all departments. As well, many of the needed operational details that specify how a coordinated response should happen have not been reviewed or updated.

We found that Public Safety Canada needs to improve the guidance it provides to federal departments for their emergency management plans. Once in place, it should analyze these plans to ensure that they provide the basis for a coordinated response.

For example, we noted in the chapter the need for guidance on preparing and responding to potential chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear or explosive events. Although Public Safety Canada issued a strategy in 2005 that outlines federal rules and responsibilities, it has not developed the operational protocols or agreements on how the departments involved should work together in a coordinated manner.

We found that Public Safety Canada has had difficulty exercising the leadership necessary to ensure that federal emergency management activities are coordinated. It has taken the necessary first steps by drafting the interim Federal Emergency Response Plan, a framework that outlines a decision-making process to be used to coordinate emergency response activities. However, we found that work on developing this plan has been ongoing since 2004, and it has not yet been formally approved by the government or endorsed by all departments. As well, many of the needed operational details that specify how a coordinated response should happen have not been reviewed or updated.

Public Safety Canada has made considerable progress in setting up its government operations centre. The centre provides better communications between departments on the status of potential and ongoing emergencies. Confusion can occur during emergencies if decision-makers do not have a full picture of what's actually happening on the ground. The government operations centre helps to reduce this confusion by providing decision-makers with a common set of facts.

Under the 2007 act, Public Safety Canada is to promote a common approach to emergency management for first responders. Public Safety Canada has assisted groups in developing standards for personal protective equipment and has completed a draft document on communications interoperability nationwide. However, we found that the federal government could do more to promote the use of standardized equipment and share the costs with first-responder groups. Officials told us that it has not done so because of a lack of resources; however, one third of its budget remained unspent.

Public Safety Canada is also the lead federal department for coordinating the protection of Canada's critical infrastructure. Public Safety Canada is working with provinces, territories, and the private sector to develop an implementation plan for its proposed national critical infrastructure strategy and has taken the first step in drafting the strategy. It has identified 10 main infrastructure sectors and a federal department to head each one. However, progress has been slow and it has not yet determined what infrastructure is critical at the federal level or how to protect it.

Threats to essential computerized infrastructure, or cyberthreats, are increasing and Canada is certainly not immune to them. Disruptions could have damaging consequences to our computer and communications networks that would also impact our electrical grids or energy distribution networks.

As we noted in our chapter, progress to determine what needs to be protected and how has been slow until this past year, and at the time of our audit Public Safety Canada was just developing the key elements of a national cyber-strategy.

Public Safety Canada has provided us with a copy of their draft action plan to respond to the findings in our chapter and implement our recommendations. We found that their action plan is thorough and that it specifically addresses the concerns we raise in this report. The committee may wish to ask the department whether progress on obtaining formal agreement for the Federal Emergency Response Plan remains on track.

Before concluding, I would like to remind committee members that I recently sent a letter to the chair on issues related to this audit. It summarizes our assessment of actions taken by Public Safety Canada and others in response to our 2005 audit that included emergency preparedness. It also contains the follow-up information on some of the recommendations issued by your committee in its June 2005 report on national security.

Mr. Chair, we thank you for your attention, and we would be pleased to answer any questions the committee members may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

We're now going to hear from Mr. Baker, the Deputy Minister of the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

[William Baker, Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm delighted to be here with members to address chapter 7 of the Auditor General’s report on emergency management, an important responsibility of Public Safety Canada.

I'm accompanied by Myles Kirvan, Associate Deputy Minister of Public Safety; Daniel Lavoie, Associate Assistant Deputy Minister of Emergency Management and National Security; and Stéphane Larue, from the Privy Council Office, Director of Operations for Security and Intelligence.

The Government of Canada's first priority is protecting the safety and security of all Canadians. Given the variety, complexity, and changing nature of the challenges facing us today, we recognize the importance of preparing for disasters and emergencies of all kinds.

We're pleased that the Auditor General noted that progress had been made in improving federal emergency coordination through the government operations centre, and that steps have been taken towards promoting a consistent approach to critical infrastructure protection and developing a cyber-security strategy.

But clearly many challenges remain before us. I have reviewed the chapter on emergency management and agree with its recommendations.

In response, the department has developed a management action plan with clearly articulated deliverables and timelines that address the five recommendations. We are confident that we will be able to make significant progress on all of them over the coming years.

Specifically, there are three areas where Public Safety Canada needs to raise its game.

First of all, a common theme running through the report is the need to develop policies and programs to clarify Public Safety Canada's leadership and coordination role. We will be seeking government approval of the federal emergency response plan, and we will do that as soon as possible. This will reinforce the understanding that federal departments have of their respective responsibilities, of the coordination role of Public Safety Canada, and where and how we are to cooperate in emergencies.

Secondly, the department needs to strengthen relationships with its stakeholders. That includes provincial and territorial governments, and the various private, not-for-profit organizations and agencies that have a role in emergency management. We remain committed to working with them, as closely as necessary, and productively as possible, and intend to expand that collaboration in the coming year.

Three, the department needs organizational stability. The report noted that we have had difficulty in attracting and retaining senior managers to provide direction and leadership. Addressing these issues will be a key priority to ensure that experienced and knowledgeable people are in place.

Planning, relationship-building, and organizational stability are clearly the three areas where the department will focus in the coming year. In doing so, I'm confident this will address the Auditor General's recommendations and strengthen the foundation upon which we carry out our mandate.

Mr. Chair, my colleagues and I would be pleased to take any questions from any of the members with respect to the report. Thank you for the opportunity to make these opening remarks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Baker.

We're now going to go to the first round of eight minutes, and we're going to start with Ms. Crombie.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Baker, I indeed have many questions for you.

Obviously the Auditor General has criticized Public Safety Canada for not exhibiting or demonstrating the kind of leadership we needed to coordinate emergency management. So why were there no policies and procedures developed since your creation to clarify and coordinate this leadership role? Why did it take so long to come to this point? Why wasn't there an action plan developed until now, and why did you never get the interim plan endorsed?

[William Baker]

If I may, Mr. Chair, first of all, we're dealing with Public Safety Canada, which is of course a relatively new organization. It was set up at the very end of 2003. The Emergency Management Act received royal assent in 2007, which clarified the role of Public Safety Canada in this regard.

Work has been done, and I think in all the areas there are documented steps that have been taken to accomplish the type of outcome that you've described. What we need to do is drive these things home clearly, get to the point of having final products that are confirmed by federal partners, provinces, territories, and others with whom we work, and in some cases we need to make sure that we have cabinet approval with respect to these products.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Nonetheless, it has been six years. Why do you think cabinet approval has been so long in forthcoming?

[William Baker]

If I may, I think with respect to the federal emergency response plan, which is a core document here, there has been a working document available for some time right now that Public Safety Canada had developed with other departments and agencies involved in emergency management. We're using that for all intents and purposes as the guidance document, but I think the Auditor General correctly pointed out that for it to have the effect it should, we need to ensure we have government support for the roles and responsibilities set out there, and that's exactly what we're seeking.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

So you don't have government support?

[William Baker]

We will. As I indicated in my opening remarks, we have a product ready to go. I'm looking forward to an early opportunity to discuss this with the minister and seek cabinet approval.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Did Public Safety Canada play a coordinating role in H1N1? Was the preparation for the pandemic deemed a success?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Point of order, Mr. Young.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Chair, I don't think we want to go down this road. H1N1 was a pandemic, it was not a national disaster. So we're really getting off the topic of dealing with national disasters.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

The chair allowed it before, and it's referenced in the report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

What's your response, Ms. Crombie?

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

You had allowed it in a previous discussion; and secondly, and more importantly, the Auditor General notes it in her report.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay, I will allow the question.

If the department was not involved in the H1N1 response, and I'm not sure they were, Mr. Baker certainly won't be continuing the discussion. I'm not aware that they were. I understand they weren't, but I'll let him speak for the department.

Go ahead, Mr. Baker.

[William Baker]

Mr. Chair, as I think everyone is aware, the Minister of Health is leading the federal response to H1N1, and that includes the department as well as the Public Health Agency of Canada. They're working with provinces and territories on the Canadian pandemic influenza plan.

Public Safety Canada does indeed have a role. Our job is to provide leadership and coordination of a whole-of-government response, which means a few things. One is that we have led the efforts to ensure that all departments and agencies have pandemic plans in place in the event that we reach a level of criticality where operations are affected.

In September of this year we assessed the pandemic readiness levels for federal institutions that provide critical services to Canadians, and we undertook a second round of those assessments in November. Of the 49 institutions responsible for the delivery of critical services to Canadians, they now show a strong degree of overall readiness and we're quite pleased with the effort that has gone into that.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Do you think a more coordinated government response would have helped the vaccine distribution to the provinces?

[William Baker]

Any question around the vaccine or the medical response would best be left with the Minister of Health and the department.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you.

Did Public Safety Canada ever meet with--

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

On a point of order, Mr. Shipley.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The members opposite went on for weeks on end about H1N1 in the House of Commons. The Auditor General can clarify for us, if she would, whether part of this audit had anything to do with the H1N1 process, because in the end, quite honestly, as the opposition member will know, it actually has worked very well.

The situation with H1N1 has been looked after. The shots are out. The vaccines are getting out to all the people who need it.

So I'll clarify that I don't think the Auditor General made reference in this report, in terms of the audit on H1N1.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You asked the question and Mr. Baker has indicated—and I'll ask him to clarify—that his department was not involved in the vaccine delivery.

Is that correct, Mr. Baker?