Evidence of meeting #44 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was safety.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
William Baker  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Myles Kirvan  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Daniel Lavoie  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Gordon Stock  Principal, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada, Justice, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

No, it's a cooperative.

4:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

William Baker

It's a cooperative. They have their own responsibility. But as I said earlier, in terms of work we've done on critical infrastructure, protection plans and so on, they've been extremely interested and are working closely with us, as we are with them, to come up with a common approach.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

Thank you.

You mentioned the Olympics, the G-8 and the G-20. How many different kinds of emergencies and disasters does such a plan have to be able to address?

4:35 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

William Baker

Mr. Chair, we call it an all-hazards plan. Under such a plan, you try to capture generically the types of hazards that might occur. Obviously there are different types of natural disasters. As we can imagine, a natural disaster can take on hundreds of forms, so you try to have a reasonable approach in terms of articulating those, with the understanding that at the end of the day, the particular disaster that occurs may be somewhat different from what was contemplated, but we have enough of it covered for purposes of planning.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

I think Mr. Kirvan said that you need consensus from the provinces and territories to finalize the plan. Is that correct?

4:35 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Myles Kirvan

Yes. I was referring, in that case, to the national strategy and action plan for critical infrastructure. In that case, that was actually worked on by all provinces and territories and the federal government, with Public Safety Canada leading it. It's a consensus process so that all ministers of all governments will be onside, not only with what the actual strategy is but with how it then rolls out. We'll all be part of it together.

That's very important in terms of working with those sectors, with the private sector, and with other aspects of civil society.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

If you need consensus, I can understand why a plan might be delayed in its approval. Although it might be a fulsome or robust plan that might be perfectly workable, given that it has to be approved by 14 governments together, I understand the delay.

Mr. Shipley talked about a living document. I agree. It's something that has to be changed and updated, ad hoc almost, at any given time. Can you tell me how that might be done, Mr. Baker?

4:40 p.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

William Baker

I think our intention with the federal emergency response plan with respect to critical infrastructure and so on is that those would be updated, probably on an annual basis, if not more frequently.

We've just, for instance, done exercises related to the Olympics. Members are probably aware of Exercise Gold, which took place a few weeks ago. They involved federal and provincial governments, VANOC, the municipality, and so on. We learned from those exercises, and we will take that learning to modify the plans that go into it. Part of it is more of a static redo that will occur. Part of it would be building on our experiences.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Terence Young Conservative Oakville, ON

I have a question for the Auditor General, because I know that she was feeling lonely there for a while.

You stated in your report that there has been considerable improvement in the government operations centre. I wonder if you could please describe what it's supposed to do, what progress has been made, and how it can improve.

4:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Sheila Fraser

Thank you.

Chair, if you'll allow, I would ask Mr. Stock to respond to that.

December 2nd, 2009 / 4:40 p.m.

Gordon Stock Principal, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada, Justice, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Basically, as the deputy has already stated, the government operations centre provides consistent information to different departments so they can act on decisions. In an emergency, the same set of facts can be communicated to a number of different people.

As we noted in the chapter, it has developed quite well over the last few years. There are some things that still need to be improved upon in terms of the overall ability of the government in the operations centre. If it is a long-term emergency of high risk that continues for a long period of time, they may not have all the resources they need to deliver against it. But for the operations they have seen, they have definitely received good feedback from departments in terms of the kinds of communication they are providing in emergencies.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you, Mr. Stock.

We'll go to Madame Faille pour cinq minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. How much time do I have? Five minutes? Thank you.

Earlier, Mr. Young asked a question about the status of the plan's approval. Could you prepare a province-by-province table showing the approval dates, i.e., when the provinces approved your plan, and submit it to the committee along with a copy of the correspondence you conducted with Quebec?

I would think that you could provide us with that fairly quickly because the information is at your disposal.

4:40 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Myles Kirvan

As I understood the question, just to reiterate, in terms of the approval process for the plan, there was a meeting of deputy ministers that occurred in September. There was consensus to move ahead with the approval. All the provinces and territories are engaged in that now at the ministerial level. We're very close to completion. We are just waiting for the completion of it.

In terms of Quebec, Quebec has been part of that exchange as well, intergovernmentally.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

So you can provide us with that information fairly quickly.

You do not have that information?

4:40 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Myles Kirvan

I'd have to get some clarity on that. Maybe what I can say is that as soon as we have final approval, there's going to actually be a ministerial announcement made, with all the provincial and territorial governments, to release it.

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

You had a meeting in September. When will you be receiving the approval?

4:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Myles Kirvan

I think it's safe to say it will be very soon—a very short timeframe.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Do you think that could be by December 31, if the committee ensures follow-up?

4:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Myles Kirvan

I can't hold any provincial government to that, but it will be very soon. Once all the ministers have done that, I think you'll see an announcement as a result.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

Does that also include the settlement of claims for which the federal government had agreed to make payment? Does that include financial compensation which had been agreed upon with the various provinces?

4:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Myles Kirvan

No, this is the critical infrastructure plan. It's focused on critical infrastructure.

I think the honourable member is referring to the disaster financial assistance arrangements, which is the current contribution plan. It has been in place and been well-respected for many, many years, with a formula for when the federal government makes--

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

No, sir, in fact I just wanted to deal with an issue that is very important for Quebec.

In 1998, Quebec experienced the worst storm, the ice storm crisis. More than 12 years have elapsed since then. Earlier, my colleague Mr. Shipley talked about credibility. In order to have credibility with the provinces, with the various governments and various authorities, we need to first and foremost resolve these outstanding issues.

When will Quebec obtain compensation for the ice storm crisis? The federal government made a commitment to compensate the Government of Quebec.

4:45 p.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Myles Kirvan

On the ice storm, there are two components: one is federal, and the other is the Quebec government one. It was a very complex claim. It took a substantial period of time to pull elements of the claim together, which is entirely understandable.

There was a huge claim from Quebec. Interim payments have been made to Quebec over the years, and if my memory serves, it has been over half a billion dollars to this point. In terms of actually finalizing it, there are still discussions going on. There are audits that have been done. An exchange of information is still going on. It will be the last one from the ice storm that is finally settled.

It was the biggest event we've had. We've been working very closely with Quebec on it, in a very cooperative way, and interim payments have been made.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC

When will the final payment be made?