Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2009

[William Baker]

It may be. Suffice to say, the federal government would not be passive in that regard. We would be aware through the government operations centre immediately that there's an issue. We would establish a media contact for purposes of monitoring the situation—there's an escalation process here—and we would become engaged at an official level. There might be a point at which a formal request would go at a political level, but we would make sure that the proper contacts are in place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

There are 45 seconds left.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

The Auditor General highlighted the inter-departmental assistant deputy ministers' committee for emergency management. I was impressed when I first heard about it. I viewed it as a sort of SWAT team, people who are ready to sit down when an emergency occurs and get the plan into action.

Is that correct? Maybe you can just tell us how it works.

[William Baker]

I would suggest probably not a SWAT team.

Daniel Lavoie represents Public Safety Canada and actually co-chairs that interdepartmental committee—with the Privy Council Office, in fact. The whole idea is to make sure that you have a common community of interest of senior officials who are sufficiently seized with the importance of emergency management, have credibility within their organizations, and can get these plans rolling and get action on the plans as needed.

When it comes to a response to a particular emergency issue, it wouldn't be an ADM committee. They may be involved in different parts of the response, but really, at that point you're looking at the locus of the issue, at who the first responders are, and making sure that they have support.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Young.

We have a few minutes left. I believe Madame Faille has another question that she wants to ask, so I'll allow her.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

It is, in fact, Mr. Roy who wants to ask the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Monsieur Roy.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My question is for you, Mr. Baker, because I am very concerned about the federal department's ability to respond to emergencies.

I will give you two examples I am aware of. In June 2004, the Coast Guard had two hydroplanes for dealing with air disasters at the Vancouver Airport. The first hydroplane broke down and then the second one did. Because the propeller was manufactured in Germany, it took three weeks before one of the hydroplanes was up and running. However, had there been a disaster at the Vancouver Airport, we would have been unable to respond during this three-week period. Let us be clear about that.

I will give you another example. After September 2001, we learned that, on the west coast, in British Columbia, the radar system was totally ineffective because there were many holes. I know that there are people from British Columbia here. Had there been a terrorist attack, we would not even have seen it coming, as was the case with this boat that carried a multitude of illegal immigrants to the coast.

To what extent do you check the validity of the information provided to you by the departments?

I have another example for you, this time dealing with the east coast. At one point, the Canadian Coast Guard had not even planned to purchase enough oil, and as a result, the ships had to remain at the dock. Indeed, the ships did not have enough oil to be able to be sent out to sea.

These are very tangible examples of incidents that we have experienced and discovered over the years. Personally, I am far from feeling safe. I am sorry.

[William Baker]

Mr. Chairman, obviously, I am not going to comment on specific examples.

Nevertheless, if you were to look at what we are doing currently in the area of critical infrastructure planning development, you would see that our objective is essentially to have concrete plans that make it possible for us to continue operating essential services right across the country.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

To what extent do you make certain that the departments are providing you with serious information, namely, that they are capable of responding seriously?

Are they not kidding you when they say that they are able to do these things although they do not necessarily have the required equipment?

[William Baker]

We do have an opportunity to review the plans. We have an opportunity to provide feedback to the departments on this matter. And if there is a problem, it is our role, it is my role, and that of the Privy Council Office as well, to encourage them to do all that is required.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I want to go back to one point that was raised before, Mr. Baker. We talked about retention of senior staff, which is very important for the operation of a department as complex as the department you're now in charge of. Related to that is the retention of deputies. I think the average tenure of a deputy in Ottawa—I don't have the latest figures—is around two or two and a half years. Since Public Safety Canada was established, the average I think has been three years, or a little higher than that.

It's always been the contention of this committee that the tenure of deputies is not long enough to operate in such a complex and large and difficult department as you operate in. You've been around Ottawa a long time. I know you can't say much, but I want to ask you anyway what your feeling is on that issue, because you have been thrown into some difficult situations before.

[William Baker]

I wish there were more deputies around. I don't want to speak for the clerk, but the clerk has also spoken on this matter. Ideally, we'd like to have the opportunity for deputies to stay in their positions longer. We're dealing with a demographic challenge that affects us all. We're trying to manage the team of deputies as best we can, given the circumstances and the needs of the day. I think we'd all agree that ideally we'd all like to be in our positions longer.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We have another few minutes left, if anyone has any other questions.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This a follow-up, deputy, to your comments about how much your department benefited from the exercises that you did. I accepted all of that and I don't question any of it. However, I want I read from the Auditor General's report. On page 17, it says:

Since April 2005, Public Safety Canada has coordinated five federal exercises, shared in the coordination of eight multi-jurisdictional exercises, and participated in an additional two exercises. However, we found that exercises were designed to meet the training objectives of individual departments, rather than to test the government’s overall coordination or readiness for a national emergency against identified risks.

Can you give us some assurance that this refocusing will be part of what you extrapolate from these exercises? What we're hearing is that as much as you got out of it, there was still a core piece that was absent.

[William Baker]

I can only agree with you. I've had a chance to look at a couple of the reports that came out of the exercises. First of all, I can assure you that they are taken seriously. The reports are comprehensive in reporting what worked and what didn't. Can we go further in enlarging what we learned from those exercises? Yes. We'll be looking for opportunities. In fact, we've had some discussions about creating a compendium of these exercises from a best-practice point of view, so that they can be put to greater use.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I believe that's what they're doing in New York. They're still doing follow-up from 9/11, looking at how it was that communications broke down. The plan breaks down when you can't communicate with your partners. The coordination, the anticipation of things breaking down and not working, how do you manage that? I think they're still sifting through what happened on that day and studying how they can improve.

[William Baker]

Thank you for the suggestion.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Does anybody else have a quick question?

Ms. Crombie.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Does Public Safety Canada have a relationship with the Public Health Agency?

[William Baker]

We have a relationship with all departments and agencies in connection with our duties. We work with all organizations to ensure that proper plans are in place, monitoring events and helping to organize a response if such a response is necessary.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Did you coordinate with them during the H1N1 crisis?

[William Baker]

The Department of Health and the Minister of Health have the lead on the health response. Our role, and it's been an active role, is working with departments and agencies and other levels of government to look at whether we have decent business continuity plans in place in case the H1N1 virus cripples the country.

[Bonnie Crombie, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Were there meetings between the agencies at any time?