Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2010

[An hon. member]

It's not looking promising.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Well, I'm glad that we have a bleak view of the world.

Mr. Young, go ahead.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

I'd like to ask the member opposite if he's ever seen anybody in this place, this Parliament, sitting around doing nothing, because I never have. That's because it's such an incredibly busy place. There are 40 standing committees, plus there are special committees. Every word is translated to either English or French. It's the busiest place I've ever been. Everybody who works here has work stacked up, basically. They go from project to project.

So when they get an important request like this, they take it very seriously. They analyze it, they look at how their time is planned ahead, how many hours and how many days and sometimes how many weeks ahead their work is planned, and they decide how quickly they can produce that for the committee, because they take that very seriously.

I don't think there's any need to belittle research by talking about a press release that costs $3,400. It's ridiculous, because no press release goes out without hours and hours of research and writing.

I don't want to belittle anybody's work. I don't think it's necessary. This is a very reasonable response to the member's request. The committee should accept it without taking up any more time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Madame Faille and Mr. Bains, and then I'm going to close it off.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you for letting me speak to this issue, Mr. Chair.

I agree to some extent with what Mr. Kramp is saying. As a rule, the committee works relatively well. Had the whole question of the renovations to the Parliamentary Precinct not surfaced in the media, we would be carrying out this study today and getting information. We might not be doing exactly what Mr. Bains is proposing we do in his motion, but we would be examining the report and all of the contract details in a collegial manner, without political partisanship and without the focus being on stories in the news. Our attention would not be focused on media reports.

Earlier I was suggesting—and Mr. Kramp seemed to agree with me—that we ask the department to send us on a daily basis the documents as they become available, while bearing in mind the November 19 deadline for providing the committee with all of the documents. That would mean we would receive the documents as they become available in both languages.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Mr. Bains.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the comments made by Madame Faille as well.

Just to respond to a point with regard to the example I used of $3,400 for a press release of 1,300 words, that pertained to outside consultants. I actually have a great deal of respect for our public servants and the work they do. The point I was trying to illustrate was this government's mismanagement in spending. I don't want to go down that line of debate, but that's the point I was trying to make. I wanted to clarify that.

However, in the spirit of cooperation, I understand that we've all made our points, and there are witnesses here as well today. I think we need to move ahead with committee business.

I would suggest or recommend—part of my recommendation goes along the lines of Madame Faille's comments—that as information becomes available, we need to look at it.

If you look at the last paragraph of the motion, there was a specific request made for a hard copy from 2007 until today of communications between a numbered company, 4373413 Canada Inc., LM Sauvé Ltd. and Paul Sauvé, Varcan Communications Inc., Gilles Varin, and any of the government officials either elected or not. It is in regard to information pertaining to that, if that can be made available to the committee as soon as possible. As the other information becomes available and is properly translated, then we will obviously take that into consideration.

That deals with the prioritizing of information and giving the department further direction. I think that helps to deal with some of the concerns I had and that other members expressed when this motion was passed. At the same time, it would allow the department to work in order to provide us with all the information that's relevant to this.

My friendly recommendation, or amendment, or suggestion would be that we get this additional information as a first priority, and then, subsequently, as the other information becomes available, that it would be shared with committee members.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

I don't know how other members around the table feel about that, but we need to be able to move on. That suggestion might be eminently receivable by members around the table, because November 19 brings us to the week after the break and will certainly give people a lot of time to respond.

As I say, I wanted to cut off the discussion simply because we have our own business.

Madame Faille.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I would just like to clarify something. A discussion took place in June after I tabled a motion to obtain all similar documents, that is IT contracts. I would like to give colleagues some idea of how long it takes a department to produce documents further to an access to information request, which is the way to go about obtaining documents.

In the case of the 30 largest departments, initial requests are processed within a week. These departments are equipped to provide us with the requested information fairly quickly.

To ease concerns about the work involved, I can tell you from experience that in the case of the information being requested by Mr. Bains about the correspondence that was exchanged, it could take much longer because information supplied by third parties must sometimes be validated, as must the matters discussed in correspondence.

However, there is no reason why the department cannot provide us with information related to contracts quickly. As I said, based on my experience, this information can be obtained within 10 to 15 days. So then, our request for copies of the contracts does not entail an inordinate amount of work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

I assume government members agree with Ms. Faille. Yes or no? I'd like us to reach a consensus on this matter. So you all agree then.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Chair, what exactly is Mr. Bains requesting, then, by November 19?

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Just a minute.

I don't want to get into further debate.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

It's just a point of clarification.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

No, but the letter says that they need until November 19 in order to comply with the committee's motion.

Mr. Bains has said okay--or this is what we have interpreted on your behalf--and that we will accept November 19, but we want all the other information, which is the information that's not this specific. In the second paragraph of the motion, there's some pretty specific information that involves a third party. It's not all information that might be in the department's hands. He conceded that point, and said, okay, give us everything you have that's purely in your hands, not the stuff that's third party, such as the communication with LM Sauvé, and so on.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Mr. Chair, the department has asked for the date of November 19. That is something that they feel is workable. It's not up to us to decide whether they can find things more quickly.

I would propose that we accept the fact that they are working on this. They've sent a letter back. They are being diligent, and they've suggested November 19.

So I would suggest that we accept that and we wait until November 19 to get the material.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Listen, as I said, we're not going to have continued debate. I thought I saw consensus around the fact that we can advise the department that they have material that's in their possession that should be sent to this committee forthwith.

As for the very specific items that involve communication with a third party, the committee is prepared to accept that they might not have that until November 19, and we're going to acknowledge that.

So on your behalf, I will communicate that.

I think we end the debate there. Thank you very much.

I have one other item of information. As per our discussion at steering committee, where we were attempting to accommodate the information given to us by another department--this one from, I guess, the defence department, who would not be available to this committee until the 25th, giving us an indication that they might be available in this week--we've not had yet a response from the defence department about the proposal we put to them regarding the schedule of appearance.

I'm going ask Mr. Kramp and Mr. Saxton to engage their good services to get them to respond, because we were trying to structure a timetable that fit their timetable.

Not having yet received information from them about their preparedness to come here now Thursday, we had indicated that what we would do is we would go to what's outstanding business for Thursday--outstanding business being some committee reports.

Mr. Kramp.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Chair, might I just suggest, then, that as well, we receive all information from the government operations committee and have it disseminated and distributed to this committee so that we can effectively see that we are wasting the government's and the taxpayers' money by simply doing the same thing that everybody else is doing.

So I would like to see the minutes of the government operations committee, complete with motions attached, sent to this committee, complete with directions, so that it is all distributed to the members of this committee, so we can certainly publicize.... And we're not going to then obviously duplicate exactly what has already been forwarded there.

I'd like that read into the record.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

It was a great compromise there until I heard an editorial.

But you're right, there's no reason why we can't get a photocopy of whatever it is that the operations committee gets.

All right, I think that--

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Get the cost of the photocopying, too, so that way we can put that into consideration as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Okay, good point. Thank you very much.

Colleagues, we're going to go into the rest of the committee business, and the committee business today involves of course the witnesses that we have from various departments.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), we are studying the auditing of departmental financial statements: the main estimates 2010-11; part III, 2010-2011 report on plans and priorities; and 2008-2009 departmental performance report of the Office of the Auditor General.

We have with us today, from the Office of the Auditor General, Mr. John Wiersema, the Deputy Auditor General, and Nancy Cheng, the Assistant Auditor General.

From Treasury Board Secretariat, we have Michelle d'Auray, the secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada; Mr. James Ralston, Comptroller General of Canada; and Bill Matthews, Assistant Comptroller General.

In the audience as well we have some representatives of audit committees, or PAC committees, from I believe Manitoba, and the committee chair, Mr. Len Derkach, and the clerk, Mr. Rick Yarish.

Welcome.

Okay, I think we'll go directly to Mr. Wiersema, whether you have a statement or whether you'd like to just acknowledge that you're here along with Ms. Nancy Cheng.

Mr. Wiersema.

[John Wiersema, Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As you indicated, I'm accompanied today by Nancy Cheng, the Assistant Auditor General responsible for, among other things, our audit of the public accounts of Canada.

When I was here two weeks ago, Mr. Chairman, I presented an opening statement on this subject. I understand that members have been provided with a copy of my opening statement from my earlier testimony.

At this point, Mr. Chairman, I have nothing to add to that opening statement, but Nancy and I would be more than pleased to respond to the committee's questions today.

Thank you, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Thank you, Mr. Wiersema.

You may proceed, Ms. d'Auray.

[Michelle d'Auray, Secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As you mentioned, I'm here with James Ralston, the Comptroller General of Canada, and Bill Matthews, the Assistant Comptroller General. We are here to talk about departmental financial statements and the financial management policies of the Government of Canada, in the context of your line of inquiry on departmental audited financial statements.

There were two objectives when the government began to renew its financial management policies: improving internal financial controls and providing parliamentarians and Canadians with better departmental financial information.

These are also the objectives the Auditor General underlined in her observations in the 2007 Public Accounts:

The focus of this initiative needs to be on the ultimate objective of improving internal controls and providing better financial information.

In 2007, and in subsequent years, the Auditor General also identified the challenges to achieving the objectives--for example, lack of documentation to support controls for key processes, lack of action plans, and challenges with information technology and systems due to manual transfers and adjustments.

As we continued to develop the new financial management policies, and as departments began the process to achieve audit readiness, the objectives of improving controls and financial information were maintained and heightened, but a different approach was adopted in order to get at the fundamental issues.

Under the new policies, deputy ministers are responsible for ensuring that the financial statements of their departments can sustain a controls-based audit, in whole or in part. The policy on internal control requires annual public disclosure by departments on the state of internal controls in their organization, as well as their action plans for improvements in that regard.

This year marks the first year for disclosure under this policy. In fact, tomorrow, at the same time as their departmental performance reports will be tabled, the 22 largest departments will be posting on their websites an annex to their statement of management responsibility that discloses the measures they are taking to maintain effective systems of internal control over financial reporting. Departmental audit committees have also reviewed these disclosures.

The disclosures are fulsome and the action plans are detailed, as I can attest from the TBS statement issued by me and my CFO, which you will see tomorrow. The control assessments and related action plans are of the same nature as the required improvements identified by the Auditor General.

In addition to the new disclosure, commencing next year, as directed by Parliament, departments will be providing quarterly financial reports on the use of their appropriations.

We are confident that our policies, accounting standards, and the time and effort dedicated by deputy heads and CFOs to strengthen internal controls and improve financial information, as evidenced by the detailed annual disclosures and quarterly reporting, will achieve the objectives we had originally sought to attain through the process of audited financial statements.

We are also confident that the audited financial statements of the Government of Canada, tabled last week in the Public Accounts, and for which the Auditor General gave an unqualified audit opinion for the 12th year in a row, are indicative of the success of our approach.

With your permission, Mr. Chair, I will ask my colleague Mr. Ralston to say a few words.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Thank you, Ms. d'Auray, for your succinct comments.

Mr. Ralston.