Evidence of meeting #38 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was helicopters.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Robert Fonberg  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
François Guimont  Deputy Minister and Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services
John Ossowski  Assistant Secretary, International Affairs, Security and Justice, Treasury Board Secretariat
André Deschamps  Chief of Air Staff, Department of National Defence
Dan Ross  Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence
Bruce Donaldson  Vice Chief of the Defence Staff, Department of National Defence
Jerome Berthelette  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Hon. Joseph Volpe (Eglinton—Lawrence, Lib.)) Liberal Joe Volpe

I would like to call this meeting to order. I want to welcome everyone this morning. Thank you very much for joining us.

Today we will be looking at chapter 6, “Acquisition of Military Helicopters”, of the fall 2010 report of the Auditor General of Canada.

I will go through introductions for everyone, and in that way we can focus ourselves while our staff is finishing the distribution of some documentation. I apologize for the few minutes of tardiness, as we have accommodated ourselves to the tardy end of the previous meeting.

Let me welcome today, from the Office of the Auditor General of Canada, Madam Sheila Fraser, Auditor General of Canada; Monsieur Jerome Berthelette, Assistant Auditor General; and John Reed, Principal.

From the Department of National Defence, we have Mr. Robert Fonberg, Deputy Minister; Lieutenant-General André Deschamps, Chief of the Air Staff; Vice-Admiral Bruce Donaldson, Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff; and Mr. Dan Ross, Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel).

From the Department of Public Works and Government Services, we have Monsieur François Guimont, Deputy Minister and Deputy Receiver General for Canada; and Mr. Tom Ring, Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch.

From the Treasury Board Secretariat, we have Mr. John Ossowski, Assistant Secretary, International Affairs, Security and Justice.

I don't think I've left anyone out. Welcome, one and all.

Madam Fraser, you're first up. Everyone has up to about five minutes. Welcome, and we look forward to hearing your intervention.

11:05 a.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Mr. Chair, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our audit of the acquisition of military helicopters. As you mentioned, I am accompanied today by Jerome Berthelette, Assistant Auditor General, and John Reed, Principal, who were responsible for this audit.

The process for acquiring complex military equipment is challenging and demanding. It is governed by a number of regulations, policies, and guidelines intended to ensure that the acquisition process is fair, open, and transparent, and that, in the end, it provides the military with the equipment it needs to carry out its vital role, both domestically and abroad, on time and on budget. It requires careful attention to planning and costing to ensure that all project elements come together.

Mr. Chair, we examined the acquisition of the maritime and medium-to-heavy lift helicopters with particular attention to operational requirements, assessment and management of risks, life cycle and planning, information for decision-making, and management board oversight.

We found that National Defence underestimated and understated the complexity and developmental nature of these helicopters, describing both as non-developmental and using off-the-shelf technologies. The modifications to the helicopters led to schedule delays and cost increases beyond the original plans.

National Defence did not fully comply with the oversight and approval framework set out in its project approval guide. Nor did it develop full life cycle plans and costs for these helicopters in a complete and timely way.

Finally, the manner in which PWGSC used the advance contract award notice did not comply with the applicable regulations and policies, and consequently, in our opinion, the process was not fair, open, and transparent.

We have recommended that National Defence and Public Works and Government Services Canada should each review and apply the lessons learned in these helicopter acquisitions to ensure that in the future the degree of development or modification of the equipment is reflected in approval documents and that the procurement strategy is tailored to reflect the complexity associated with the acquisition.

We also recommended that National Defence should start estimating the full life cycle costs earlier in its project management process, specifically at the options analysis phase, and that as the estimates change and become more precise, it should provide updates in the subsequent steps of the process. We further recommended that the preparation of life cycle plans should be started at the time of preliminary project approval.

We also made recommendations with respect to in-service support and management oversight within National Defence as described in the chapter.

We have made no recommendations on the management of the advance contract award notice, commonly referred to by its acronym, ACAN. Our position is that the manner in which the ACAN was used for the acquisition of the Chinook was not fair, open, and transparent. Given the significant difference between the information provided in the 2006 ACAN and what was finally agreed to in the contract in 2009, in our opinion, a second ACAN should have been issued.

As you know, the departments accepted all of our recommendations. Their management responses are included in the chapter.

Mr. Chair, when we appeared before this committee on Thursday, October 28, 2010, we suggested that the acquisition process may not necessarily be suited to the purchase of complex equipment requiring modifications or development. The committee may wish to discuss this further with officials from the departments in attendance today.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions from committee members.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe

Thank you Ms. Fraser. I will now give the floor to Mr. Fonberg, who has five minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Robert Fonberg Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Merci beaucoup. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I actually will be very brief. I appreciate this opportunity to join you today to discuss chapter 6 of the 2010 fall report of the Auditor General pertaining to the procurement of new military helicopters.

As you noted, I'm joined today by the Vice-Chief of the Defence Staff, Vice-Admiral Donaldson; by Don Ross, Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel; and by Lieutenant-General André Deschamps, Chief of the Air Staff.

The CH-148 Cyclone and the CH-147 Chinook helicopters are both essential capabilities. They will enable the Canadian Forces to do what is asked of them by their government, which is to deliver excellence in missions at home, on the continent and around the world, as outlined in the Canada First defence strategy.

These helicopters will also ensure the highest possible level of safety for the troops who will use them.

As the Auditor General noted, major military procurement projects are extremely complex. That said, both projects are on track to remain well within their approved funding envelopes.

Mr. Chairman, the National Defence team operates at the highest standards of integrity and excellence, and we continually seek ways to improve the efficiency, the effectiveness, and the transparency of our procurement processes.

That is why we accept all the recommendations put forward in chapter 6. In fact, we are already implementing a detailed action plan—a copy of which has been shared with the committee—that will address the report's recommendations.

We welcome this opportunity, joined by my colleagues from Defence and the Canadian Forces, as well as my colleagues from Treasury Board and Public Works, to address any questions you might have.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe

Thank you, Mr. Fonberg.

I'll go to the Department of Public Works and Government Services. Is it Monsieur François Guimont who will deliver these remarks?

11:15 a.m.

François Guimont Deputy Minister and Deputy Receiver General for Canada, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm very pleased to appear before you today with my counterparts from the Treasury Board Secretariat and the Department of National Defence as part of your study of the Auditor General's fall 2010 report, in particular the chapter on the acquisition of military helicopters. With me is Mr. Tom Ring, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Acquisitions Branch of my department.

I would like to thank Madam Fraser for her work. As in other audits her office has carried out, we take the findings seriously, as we fundamentally believe in continuous improvement. As such, we have already addressed the two recommendations put forward in the report, and the two “lessons learned” exercises have already been completed. As a result of these exercises, we have concluded that we need to undertake to review terminology and documentation requirements to support the use of an ACAN to eliminate the possibility of misinterpretation. Second, we need to develop tools and templates for complex procurement activities, which will inform best approaches vis-à-vis lowest cost compliant or best value to the crown. Finally, we need to provide enhanced training for staff assigned to complex procurement processes.

I have filed with the committee a copy of Public Works and Government Services Canada's action plan.

I would also like to note that one of the issues at hand is related to an interpretation as to the documentation maintained on file to support and justify a procurement course of action, whether competitive or sole source. We have taken steps to review our various guidance documents on the issue of level of documentation required to support the decision to proceed with a public and open posting of an advanced contract award notice on the government's electronic tendering system, MERX. This will be done in full consultation with the Treasury Board Secretariat and the Office of the Auditor General if they so wish. Subsequent changes will be made as necessary.

With respect to the Cyclone, the Auditor General has acknowledged that officials followed policies and regulations regarding contract management. However, her report also raised questions as to whether the lowest price compliant approach used under this project is compatible with the acquisition of complex military equipment.

On this point, the department agrees, even if the lowest price compliant approach was fully respected throughout the acquisition of the Cyclone. As indicated in the report, it is necessary to recognize that the acquisition of such complex equipment brings with it unique challenges.

I would be happy to answer any questions.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe

Thank you, Mr. Guimont.

We will now move on to Mr. John Ossowski.

11:15 a.m.

John Ossowski Assistant Secretary, International Affairs, Security and Justice, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your invitation to discuss chapter 6 of the Auditor General's fall 2010 report regarding the acquisition of the Cyclone and Chinook helicopters.

We welcome the Auditor General's report and note its findings. This report and others like it are useful to both policy makers and policy implementers, as they help to identify lessons learned and assist us in our efforts of continuous improvement.

Treasury Board policies regarding project approval and project management are in place to ensure departments have the appropriate frameworks in place to support the achievement of the desired outcomes and demonstrate sound stewardship in doing so. These policies take into account the evolution of a project from conception to full implementation and are scalable to manage a wide variety of projects. While there are no recommendations in this audit directed at Treasury Board Secretariat, I am here today to answer any questions the committee may have regarding how the secretariat fulfills its responsibilities.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe

Thank you very much.

I'll go to members around the table. The first round is for seven minutes with Mr. D'Amours.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

Thank you all for coming.

My first question is for the national defence department officials. Can you confirm that the acquisition of the helicopters was undertaken for, among other reasons, the men and women in uniform who are defending our country and are currently stationed in Afghanistan? In other words, were these helicopters intended to be used on this mission, yes or no?

11:15 a.m.

LGen André Deschamps Chief of Air Staff, Department of National Defence

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Don't forget—

It's a yes or a no.

11:15 a.m.

Chief of Air Staff, Department of National Defence

LGen André Deschamps

The acquisition of the Chinook helicopters was not intended for the mission in Afghanistan.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

And the Cyclone helicopters?

11:15 a.m.

Chief of Air Staff, Department of National Defence

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

So neither of these was going to be useful to transport our men and women in the context of our mission in Afghanistan.

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Air Staff, Department of National Defence

LGen André Deschamps

Not for the mission ending in 2011.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Therefore the acquisition was for future purposes.

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Air Staff, Department of National Defence

LGen André Deschamps

It was part of the Canadian Forces' development plan for the future.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

According to the documents we consulted, including that of the Auditor General, the department stated that the helicopters were already available. Were they truly available?

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Air Staff, Department of National Defence

LGen André Deschamps

Could you please repeat the beginning of your question?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

The Auditor General's report indicates that the department stated that the helicopters were available. Were the helicopters available yes or no?

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Air Staff, Department of National Defence

LGen André Deschamps

Which helicopters are you referring to?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I'm referring to the marine Cyclone helicopters.

11:20 a.m.

Chief of Air Staff, Department of National Defence

LGen André Deschamps

The marine Cyclone helicopters are not currently available.