Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 7th, 2010

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

What about the Chinooks?

[LGen André Deschamps]

The new Chinooks are not available. We have Delta Chinooks that we are currently using. They were purchased strictly for the mission in Afghanistan.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Can you explain why, in 2006, National Defence described the project internally, to cabinet and to Treasury Board, as being the acquisition of a unit that was already available?

You're saying that neither were available but that's not what was stated internally.

I'll ask you the same question. You stated to the department that these helicopters were already in production. Were those helicopters already in production, yes or no?

[Dan Ross, Assistant Deputy Minister (Materiel), Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, the two helicopters are different. The Chinook helicopter is an in-production F-model helicopter. It is proven and in production, and we added self-defence equipment to it for use--

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Which one?

[Dan Ross]

That's the Chinook H-47F.

The Cyclone was based on an in-service proven civilian helicopter used in offshore drilling support operations around the world, which we modified by folding the tail and rotors and adding the sensors to meet a military position.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Ross, you are answering a rather simple question. If those helicopters are in production and if they exist, does National Defence currently own those helicopters?

[Dan Ross]

Not exactly as they are currently used. There were mandatory essential upgrades required for them.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Where are those helicopters?

[Dan Ross]

The two contracts are signed. For the Cyclones, five are in production--

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Where are the helicopters? Does National Defence have those helicopters?

[Dan Ross]

No.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I think that some things have to be understood.

If the helicopters are available, if they're in production, if they include those technologies and if they exist, where are these helicopters?

We're talking about an issue that dates back a few years. We're wondering if we can expect to have those helicopters in 2025 when they're in production, they're available and the technology exists.

If all that existed at the time, why can't we have those helicopters today? It seemed so easy to sell this, whether it be internally or to cabinet, and to say that the helicopters were in production, that they were available and that the technology was available.

Where are they? If it's so simple, why doesn't the Government of Canada and National Defence have these helicopters?

[Dan Ross]

Mr. Chairman, perhaps I could give a broader context to how long it takes to produce and to do certification testing of a military helicopter.

For a marine helicopter, after contract signing it typically takes between seven and 10 to 12 years to complete all of the design work, whether it's off the shelf or not. For example, in the case of the Cyclone, it takes about three years to do airworthiness certification testing.

Let me finish, sir, please--

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Ross, this is my time.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to get a clarification from Mr. Ross. If you say this can go up to 12 years, will there be a limit?

We've seen that the costs are starting to go up. There's a difference of more or less $2 billion for one of the models because training and maintenance were not included.

Will we end up with helicopters that are going to cost double, triple or quadruple the expected cost? You're saying no but you're saying that this could take up to 12 years. If they are in production and available then we should be able to obtain them within a reasonable time period.

We are trying to understand who ultimately is responsible. Being told that this will take up to 12 years is not an explanation. That is not what we're being told at all.

[Dan Ross]

I didn't say it was going to take us 12 years.

[Jean-Claude D'Amours, Liberal, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

I would like to understand why it was stated internally that these helicopters were already available, already in production and that the technology to be integrated already existed?

In 12 years the technology will probably have had time to change and the models also might have had to change. I understand that these aren't like cars whose models change every year but when we're talking about a 7 to 12-year cycle some things will have been modified and changed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Mr. D'Amours, unfortunately your time is up. Mr. Ross, you will have to answer this question a little later.

We will now move on to Ms. Faille.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought you were asking the witnesses to answer.

I have the August 7, 2008, press release about the acquisition of material, including UAVs and Chinooks.

The rental of six model D American Chinooks is mentioned. They were acquired for operations and they were supposed to be within operation theatres in February 2009.

What is the expected long-term use of these Chinooks that were rented from the United States? I will then have questions regarding the purchase of 15 other helicopters.

[Dan Ross]

The Chinooks purchased for Afghanistan will be disposed of on completion of the mission next fall.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Therefore they will be used in the fall of 2011.

[Dan Ross]

Yes, absolutely.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Is further use expected? Will changes be made to these Chinooks in order to make them more "Canadian"?

[Dan Ross]

No.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Therefore you will simply return them to the Americans.