Okay. Thanks.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Public Accounts in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe
Thank you, Mr. Hawn and Mr. Friday.
You, of course, have read the report, Mr. Friday. On page 8, paragraph 19, the third bullet point, it says:
...the Commissioner prepared and circulated information about the complainant within PSIC, which included leading the preparation of four binders comprising 96 documents and totalling more than 375 pages of information about him, circulating at least 50 emails about him, and involving at least 6 of her staff in these activities....
You're still confident about the mandate. You're confident about the atmosphere and the productivity. But you were the general counsel. Didn't this bother you at all?
12:40 p.m.
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Mr. Chair, the information that I understood the commissioner to be collecting and requesting was for her to prepare herself to participate in the audit. The audit went to a very wide range of issues: human resource management, performance pay, interaction with staff, as well as all her mandated functions. The commissioner was putting together information requesting from staff access to information within our files. That was provided to her for that purpose. What the commissioner's prep binders looked like...I can honestly say I didn't see the binders.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe
Okay.
I have two other speakers who want to get a second round. I've been very generous with time for everybody, but I'm going to try to limit you to two minutes maximum. That includes the answer.
Madame Faille.
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Mr. Chair, let me express my concerns and share with you my feeling of déjà vu. I dealt with cases at the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada. Some board members had misbehaved or had committed reprehensible acts. Some files were reviewed. I would like an answer regarding the mandate for the external review.
Who will make up the committee for external review? Who will determine whether decisions are upheld or overturned? Who will decide the eligibility criteria for files to be reviewed? Could the Auditor General's Office validate the mechanism before it is implemented?
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Perhaps Ms. Fraser could answer the second part of my question. Could the Office of the Auditor General validate the mechanism prior to its implementation? A little earlier, we heard that there was going to be an external review. What are the rules governing that review? Who will be on the committee? How will it work? Could the Auditor General share with us her thoughts on that?
12:40 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
If the PSIC wishes to have our opinion on the process, we would be pleased to offer it.
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
12:40 p.m.
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada
Merci, monsieur le président.
The decision will be that of the interim commissioner, but speaking personally, I would have absolutely no difficulty working with the Office of the Auditor General. I think we feel we know each other very well by now.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe
Thank you for not going over the allotted time.
Mr. D'Amours, the floor is yours.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Fraser, do you believe that this matter would warrant the appearance of the clerk of the Privy Council before this committee to explain the hiring process for the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner of Canada? I would ask you to keep your answer brief because I have another question for you.
12:40 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
If the committee has questions on the appointment process in general, you should call on the Privy Council. I would find it highly unlikely that the Privy Council could discuss a specific case, given the confidentiality rules and Privacy Act.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, since this is an issue of interest to our committee, I would like for us to debate a motion calling on the clerk of the Privy Council and Ms. Ouimet to appear before the committee. There are many questions that have been left unanswered in this matter. It appears that rumours have been started in the hope that the blame will be put on others. We need to hear from these two individuals.
At the start of the meeting, Mr. Young said that we had not ordered them to appear. I believe that the committee should now debate a motion calling on Ms. Ouimet to appear, along with the clerk of the Privy Council, or some other official from the Privy Council Office, at the next meeting of the committee.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe
If you want to move something, you will have time to do so once we have given leave to our witnesses.
As soon as the witnesses leave, I gather that Madame Faille....
Ms. Faille, is it a point of clarification?
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
Yes. Would it be possible to call back certain witnesses, if the committee decides to study an issue further? Personally, I would have other questions to ask. I see that we are short on time.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe
How do you say in French....
in English, I'm in the hands of the committee, and certainly the committee--
12:45 p.m.
Bloc
Meili Faille Bloc Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC
I would not want this to cut into our time, because I might have other questions.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe
We're going to move into the business of the committee as soon as I give the witnesses an opportunity to leave. So you can raise that question. We'll have about 10 minutes to do it.
On behalf of the committee, let me thank the Auditor General and her office, the Office of the Public Sector Integrity Commission, and Mr. Nelson from the audit committee for sharing their time with us. It may have appeared to be a little rough for some witnesses, but I'm hoping that none of you will walk away from this thinking that the committee wasn't interested in getting to the bottom of something that would help this committee and other committees in Parliament. I thank you for your responses.
If committee members want to offer season's greetings for all of you, whether it's Christmas or anything else, I do so on behalf of the committee. I'll give them all an opportunity to say that on their own because we're going to suspend for a couple of minutes before we go to business.
Merci beaucoup.
12:49 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joe Volpe
Thank you, colleagues. There are a couple of issues that have come out of this meeting.
The question that emanated from Mr. D'Amours and Madame Faille is to reconvene some of the witnesses and, without shaping the language of the committee, to re-extend the invitation to others who had received an invitation, on short order or not, and were unable or unprepared to come forward. That is something we might want to spend five minutes on.
Mr. D'Amours, do you want to re-propose whatever it was you said?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Mr. Chair, I thought that I had made myself clear. I raised a point of clarification because I thought we had done more than simply invite them to appear. Mr. Young said that it was only an invitation, that there had not been a formal request to ensure their attendance. So if that is the case, we should call on those two individuals whose names I mentioned at the start of the meeting. It would be useful for the Standing Committee on Public Accounts to hear from those two individuals and others, if necessary or possible, at our first meeting after the break.
12:50 p.m.
An hon. member
In 2011.