Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 14th, 2010

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Can you provide us a copy of that or some of those discussions, particularly with the development of the guidelines? There's a reason that I ask this question. I'll pose this question to the Auditor General as well. For an office that's set up like this, having no proper guidelines set up in three years...do you believe that's normal practice, in your opinion, when these commissions are set up?

[Sheila Fraser]

Chair, we would have expected that after three years there would have been finalized guidelines. As we mention in the report, there were drafts that were available, but we would have expected them to have been completed and then training given to staff on how to implement that to make sure there was consistency across the treatment of the files.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Mr. Friday, how many of the closed files--the 228 that we're discussing right now--have you reviewed?

[Joe Friday]

The independent review process that we spoke of...? We have not begun that review process yet. That will be under the direction of the new interim commissioner.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

So I guess my question now to the Auditor General is, do you think the files should be reviewed, the 228 files? After the audit and these revelations, there is genuine concern about how they were dealt with. More importantly, who do you think should conduct that review? Do you think the PSIC should conduct this review? If so, don't you think that poses a conflict of interest?

[Sheila Fraser]

As I have stated previously, I believe that all the files received should be reviewed, and the investigations as well, to ensure that the conclusions were appropriate. I would suggest to the new interim commissioner that he has to ensure that the process being put in place is credible. I think Mr. Friday mentioned that there would be an association with some independent person. I think that would be appropriate, in this case, to give assurance to parliamentarians, to the public, and especially to the complainants that this process is being dealt with seriously.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Do you want to comment on the timeline associated with when these reviews will take place?

[Joe Friday]

To clarify, Mr. Chair, the review we're looking at would indeed be an external review. That is our intention. We will be discussing the timeline with the new interim commissioner, who begins his job on Monday. Our intention is to do that on a priority basis, certainly.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Can you clarify your role when these files were reviewed, prior to your new appointment? What was your role in terms of the advice and suggestions you provided to the commissioner in your previous capacity?

[Joe Friday]

The process of file review and recommendation involves a number of people in our office, starting with intake, which would be a registrar function. That person would do an initial review to ensure that a matter is within our jurisdiction. That would also involve discussing other options and ensuring that information that is necessary is on the file. That would move, then, to an admissibility analysis stage. Legal counsel would be available, at this stage and forward, to provide whatever assistance was needed by the admissibility analyst. A report would then be produced. That report would also be reviewed by legal counsel on the file. Then it would go through a sign-off process for the managers in each of the roles.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

You signed off on these.

[Joe Friday]

In some cases, yes. There were a number of files done before I arrived. I arrived approximately a year after the act came into force. There had been some different structures with respect to--

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Sorry to interrupt, but how many files, in your opinion, did you review during your tenure?

[Joe Friday]

I'd have to get back to you on that.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

You can get back to me. That would be great. I appreciate that.

[Joe Friday]

That review process is not top to bottom. The work is not redundant at every stage of that review, of course. It would be....

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

I guess in terms of where the buck stops, this is a question I wanted to get clarification on. I would like comments and thoughts on this from the AG, in particular.

Today we just heard about a new commissioner. It was announced by the Prime Minister and his minister and the cabinet. It clearly shows that this is a cabinet appointment. This particular commissioner is appointed by the cabinet.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Sorry. You'll have to come back.

Madame Faille.

[Sheila Fraser]

May I just briefly respond to that? I think there's an important point of clarification.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Go ahead, Madam Fraser.

[Sheila Fraser]

An interim commissioner can be named by Governor in Council, but only for a period of six months, so it really is an interim position. All commissioners, auditors general, and officers of Parliament now, after the Federal Accountability Act, must go through a parliamentary process and hearings and a resolution by Parliament. So it is not simply an appointment by the Prime Minister, for example.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joe Volpe]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Madam Faille.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

Thank you, Auditor General, for that clarification, because some of the information was not contained in the written submissions. I therefore appreciate the information that you have provided.

Auditor General, did you have an opportunity to speak with the members of Ms. Ouimet's staff who left the commissioner's office prematurely? I am referring, for example, to Deputy Commissioner Wayne Watson, who was her right-hand man and who left after one year. Were you able to talk to former employees about the problems in the office?

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, we met with more than 30 individuals, including people who had left the office, during the course of our audit. I would, however, hesitate to name individuals specifically. You know that we try to ensure that the information given to us remains confidential.

[Meili Faille, Bloc, Vaudreuil—Soulanges, QC]

I wanted to ensure that you did not reject the idea of questioning people who had left her staff.