Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2011

[Richard Dicerni]

I have nothing to add to the eloquent statements already made.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Minister Clement, would you like the last word? Has every cent of the G-8 legacy fund been accounted for?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

What I rely on, obviously, is the Auditor General's comments, which were to that effect, yes.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you very much.

Now, with respect to the e-mails that were released under municipal freedom of information, the NDP have repeatedly said that those e-mails only came to light because of their own research.

Minister Clement, under municipal freedom of information legislation, the federal government must be consulted to release e-mails that may be between the federal and municipal governments. Were you asked if those e-mails could be or should be released?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'd be happy to answer that question.

I was in fact contacted by the Town of Huntsville. They're a little bit unfamiliar with these processes, but they were advised by their legal counsel, I'm presuming, or by their chief administrative officer, one of the two, that there is a duty to consult with the federal government.

My office was contacted, I was contacted, and was asked whether those e-mails should be released under the rules of the municipal freedom of information act. I communicated to them very directly that I did not want them to hold those e-mails. I wanted them to release those e-mails; I believe they should be in the public domain. There was nothing in the e-mails that I felt should be held back, and so I did in fact send an official letter to the Town of Huntsville, or a letter was sent on my behalf, in order to communicate that point.

[Andrew Saxton, Conservative, North Vancouver, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you, Mr. Saxton.

We'll now move to Mr. Angus. You have five minutes, sir.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen and ladies, for coming.

Thank you particularly, Mr. Clement. As the Treasury Board president, I'm sure you understand the gravity of the situation of reassuring the public that you as the Treasury Board president know the processes and that taxpayers can put their trust in you.

I'm interested in a meeting you held on February 29, 2009, with the local area leaders group, where civil servant Tom Dodds told the local mayors that public servants would review and evaluate all the projects.

Would you give this committee those evaluations so that we can see what they found?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

My recollection of this is that there are two sets of projects that I think we are talking about. What you are referring to, or what you think you're referring to, is the G-8 legacy projects, but Mr. Dodds was not referring to those projects. He was referring generally to projects that are in fact delivered to FedNor, an organization with which you're familiar. He was referring to those kinds of projects rather than the G-8 legacy projects.

Perhaps Deputy Minister Dicerni would like to add—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

No, I'm sorry, I don't have time for Mr. Dicerni; I can write to him if I need him.

I'm concerned, because the Auditor General told us there was no paper trail. The paper trail that we found, thanks to your more than willingness to release it to us, was your homemade paper saying to send your projects to Tony Clement's office, at [e-mail]. There's no Government of Canada or anything on this.

Would you submit the projects that came in on this homemade piece of paper to our committee? The Auditor General didn't have any projects on that. How many were there? Could you give them to us?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I believe the document you're holding up is a document created by the local municipalities; it wasn't created by me, per se. It was distributed, I believe, at the December meeting of the local area leadership group as a way to get the municipalities thinking about what their priority was.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Did anybody fill it out?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

So as I've said in my opening remarks—I'd be happy to repeat my opening remarks to you—these projects represented the priorities of the local municipal governments—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm sorry; I only have a few minutes left. You've said that you used your constituency office and that you handed them on to federal officials. This is a document that has your e-mail, your constituency office. Presumably you have copies of it. You must have kept photocopies of it. The Auditor General said they had never seen anything in their entire career with that absolute lack of documentation.

Obviously, you and your staff were handing this out. You told us that you passed it on to federal officials. What happened? Where is the paper trail of all these projects that you ran through your office? Would you give them to us?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Well, Mr. Angus, I can assure you and your colleagues on this committee that all documentation that was requested of me by the Auditor General was forwarded to the Auditor General, and then she based her conclusions.

The issue for the Auditor General, if I may be so bold, is that she was looking for documentation not only on the 33 projects that were submitted to Minister Baird; she was looking for documentation relating to the 242 proposals.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Well, in fairness to the Auditor General, who came here—and I asked the specific question of whether your department handed anything over—we were told that they got nothing of relevance. Obviously there was a paper trail that started with you in those meetings, ran through your constituency office, and then disappeared.

What we're talking about, Mr. Clement, is a breach of public trust; about creating a parallel process. And this is what concerns me: the Auditor General told us the rules were broken, and the Auditor General told us that the civil servants were not involved. They were excluded from it. So the civil servants didn't do anything wrong. If the civil servants didn't do anything wrong, then who broke the rules?

Mr. Clement, where is the paper trail?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Angus, let me repeat—what I said in my opening remarks was very clear—that when it came to going from 242 down to 33, I encouraged the municipal governments to prioritize within their own communities and give us the very best projects—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But where is the paper trail? You ran it through your office, and then the Auditor General was told—

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'm trying to answer your question, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

—that there was no paper. This is your homemade paper trail. You should have a couple of pieces of paper.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

He's been complaining all along that I haven't been speaking—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm just asking, where is it?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

—and now he's interrupting me.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Where is it?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

This is very difficult—