Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 2nd, 2011

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

At the time, things were--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Didn't you go in there with, like, a plan?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

No, no, it's actually quite clear. At the time, there wasn't any paper from the department. They were anxious to get on with the projects because they had to be completed over a year earlier than other stimulus projects.

In an effort to be helpful, the municipalities then brought forward their proposals in a form that they thought would be helpful to the government to make the ultimate decision.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Excellent. And then all the paper was deep-sixed; that's even more helpful, I would find.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

It then went to my constituency office, and from there it ultimately went to Minister Baird.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But you haven't produced any of this paper.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'm sorry?

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

You haven't produced any of this paper, so this is the question. I mean, the mayors are helping you out to spend $50 million. They're helping you make up a form. You help them with their paper, and then the Auditor General comes up zero—no paper.

I guess I'm asking you this because the Auditor General came—and I also want to follow up on Ms. Bateman's comments—and said two very clear things to us. Mr. Wiersema said that the civil servants did not mislead the Auditor General, but that the rules were broken.

So who broke the rules, Mr. Clement?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Look, I've been very clear, Mr. Angus. I think the public servants can speak for themselves, and I would defend them, that they—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm asking you: who broke the rules?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Angus, I would defend the public servants. They did not in any way say anything that was untoward to the Auditor General. They spoke the truth, just as I speak the truth.

The truth of the matter is that when it came to designing a process to get the best projects to the decision-maker, in this case Minister Baird—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But we're talking about the Auditor General's accusation that rules were broken.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Right. So the Auditor General—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Who broke the rules? Have you undertaken an investigation? Again, this is about your fundamental competency now as the new Treasury Board president. The Auditor General said somebody broke the rules. I would expect that you're going to find out.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Well, I would go back to the--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Have you launched an investigation to find out who broke the rules?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Mr. Angus, you're saying things, but I actually want to go back to the text of the Auditor General's report:

We are concerned about the lack of documentation in the process for selecting projects for funding. Supporting documentation is important, in our view, to show that the selection process was transparent....

She does say that, and I agree with her.

I would like you to know--

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Then the Auditor General said, outside our committee, that rules were broken.

Have you investigated that?

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

I'm reading exactly from the report, sir, and that's what the report says. I would like you to know that I take that to heart.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm sorry, I don't want to argue with you, Mr. Clement; I guess it's a question of how you do business. That's the question. When an Auditor General says rules were broken, I would think that you would want to follow that up.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

No, the Auditor General said she was concerned about the lack of documentation. I take that to heart. The paperwork for this was not perfect. It should have been better—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Not perfect? It doesn't exist.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

—and I take my share of the responsibility for that.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

It doesn't exist.

[Tony Clement, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Certainly I have learned that there are different ways and better ways to provide for these kinds of intake processes, and I will commit myself to using those.