Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To our witnesses, or those appearing before us, you're very, very welcome here. There's certainly no hostility. We just want to ask some simple questions and get to some simple truths.
In relation to this, from my point of view--and I'm sure this is on behalf of all committee members--it seems very, very clear and understandable why the Comptroller General, those who prepare the public accounts and those who protect the public interest, would want to protect the names of the recipients of merchant navy veterans' benefits, Agent Orange benefits, Indian residential school system benefits, and even for damages and losses, for those who are in receipt of ex gratia payments for damages and losses received during service in Afghanistan.
Parliament specifically debated, authorized, and approved the programs and, in essence, where that money would flow from. There has been a disclosure to Parliament and an approval by Parliament for the nature of and the discretion within those particular programs. I don't think there's anything that anyone would argue with on that point of view.
But with all respect to my colleagues, my question is that there seems to be somewhat of a creep in terms of the mandated authority that the Comptroller General is asking for here, which I'd just like to get to the bottom of. I've had some research done and have conducted my own research. This has come up on a few occasions in the past at the public accounts committee, where the overall authority to waive the publication of names has come up and questions were answered.
What seems a little different here is that we're going beyond established programs--compensation or ex gratia payments and other payments made arising from established programs that were actually pre-debated and pre-authorized by Parliament--to something further.
When the Comptroller General wrote to us, he asked for authority not to disclose payments to inmates. The Correctional Service of Canada obviously makes payments to inmates. The Comptroller General does not actually declare or indicate to this committee to which particular program he is referring. What I'm concerned about is that there are payments being made to inmates without any pre-authorization by Parliament or pre-consideration.
I recognize that most ex gratia payments are not pre-authorized by Parliament. That's their very nature. But you're asking for authority not to publish payments to criminals. I don't know where that comes from or what the program is from, but we also go a step further here. This is the creep I'm talking about, the authority creep, as it were. You're also asking for things that were never ever discussed by Parliament.
Here's what you're asking for, and I quote: “There are also a variety”--a variety--“of miscellaneous instances where names are being withheld due to confidentiality agreements relating to the payments of Claims against the Crown”--claims that may not have been adjudicated by any court system and are just a voluntary payment--“[other] Ex Gratia payments, and Court Awards”.
Now, I can understand court awards. If the court actually authorized that there be non-disclosure of an award, then I think it behooves Parliament to also acquiesce to that. But if a court award is actually published, it's already public information. I don't understand why that would be excluded from the public accounts.
As the final thing, what the Comptroller General has asked for is...he would propose to the committee to provide to the committee, in camera and on an as required basis, the names of those in receipt of payments--not on an as requested basis, but on an as required basis. There's a strong distinction in that language. Who determines what is required and who requires it? And why not as requested?
Finally, Mr. Chair, how can we request something if we don't know of its existence?
I appreciate the fact that there has been a suggestion of an in camera exercise to draw out this information, but if we don't actually know of its existence, it's difficult for us. As committee members and parliamentarians, as the safeguards of the public purse, it's difficult for us to actually request something if we don't even know of its existence.
There are a number of issues there. On the issues of the Indian residential school system, Agent Orange, merchant navy benefits, and even damages and losses in Afghanistan, while I would ask the Comptroller General to continue to include information, I would ask personally to--