Evidence of meeting #89 for Public Accounts in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was security.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Ferguson  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Wendy Loschiuk  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
René Béliveau  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Nancy Cheng  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Neil Maxwell  Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

3:30 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

I now declare this 89th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts in order.

I first welcome Mr. Van Kesteren and Mr. Shory, who have joined us today. Welcome, gentlemen. I hope you enjoy your time with us.

Colleagues, you will recall that at the last meeting we agreed that if we did a full rotation of questions, there would be time remaining. We've already had a discussion and agreed that we will continue the rotation until the full two hours have expired, at which time we will adjourn. Is there anybody who has a problem with that?

Good. Hearing none, thank you.

We will now turn our attention to the spring 2013 report of the Auditor General of Canada. Colleagues, we'll proceed in the usual fashion. We'll ask the Auditor General to make an opening statement and then I will turn to the usual rotation list for speaking assignments. Again, does anybody have a problem with where we are and where we're about to proceed?

Hearing, none, welcome, Mr. Auditor General. I would now give you the floor and an opportunity to introduce your delegation and present your report and opening remarks.

Sir, you have the floor now.

3:30 p.m.

Michael Ferguson Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to present our spring 2013 report which was tabled in the House of Commons last Tuesday.

I'm accompanied by the assistant auditors general Neil Maxwell, Nancy Cheng, Jerome Berthelette, and Wendy Loschiuk.

Mr. Chair, we also have other members of staff with us and I may from time to time ask one of them to join us at the table with your approval.

This report reflects the broad range of activities audited by our office. It includes findings from three follow-up audits and seven new audits, as well as a summary of special examination work in crown corporations. Overall, we found many areas where the government should improve on the results it achieves with taxpayers' dollars.

Status reports present our findings from follow-up audits. In these audits, we examine whether government has made satisfactory progress on recommendations we raised in past audits.

Our first follow-up audit focused on how government evaluates program effectiveness. Evaluation is a tool to improve programs and support government policy and spending decisions through evidence-based information.

We found the government has made satisfactory progress in the way it evaluates its programs. However, we also note that despite this progress, program evaluation is still not used to its full potential to support government decision-making.

We are also reporting satisfactory progress in our follow-up audit that looked at the Canada Revenue Agency's efforts to collect unpaid tax debts. The timely collection of overdue accounts is one of the key components for preserving the integrity of the tax system.

We found that the agency has taken a number of measures to improve the way it collects tax debts. These include new collection tools and revised work flows.

The improvements the Canada Revenue Agency has made have resulted in a significant increase in the amount of tax debt being collected. However, given tax arrears of $29 billion, the agency needs to continue to work to refine and improve its tools, such as the models it uses to determine which accounts to pursue first.

In the last of the three follow-up audits we are reporting on, we found that the government has not made satisfactory progress in addressing the recommendations we made in 2007 on safeguarding government information and assets in contracting. Protecting information and assets entrusted to contractors is critical to the government's ability to prevent misuse and unauthorized access and to achieve its security objectives.

Despite a number of improvements, including a new policy on government security, significant weaknesses remain in this critical area. For example, National Defence does not meet all the requirements of the new policy, and has yet to approve a departmental security plan.

In addition, 85 of the almost 300 contracts we reviewed over five departments were missing security documentation or did not follow control procedures. We observed some files where security requirements were not identified when, based on departmental policy, they should have been.

Departments and agencies—and in particular National Defence—need to improve their practices to ensure that all security requirements are met.

Let's move now to the new audit work included in this report.

In the first of these audits, we looked at the official assistance that Canada provides to developing countries through multilateral organizations. About $3 billion of the official development assistance spent in 2010-11 was channelled through multilateral organizations. We found that responsible departments are doing a good job of working with multilateral organizations and monitoring their performance. However, we also found that reports to Parliament contain limited information on how aid is spent and on the results achieved. I am concerned that the information reported to Parliament is not giving a clear picture of the nature of spending on official development assistance.

We also looked at the government's activities to promote the prevention and control of diabetes. The government has recognized that a joint approach is required to prevent and control diabetes in Canada. The organizations tasked with implementing this approach have to ensure that the resources put at their disposal are maximizing benefits for Canadians.

The Public Health Agency has not defined how it will work with Health Canada and the Canadian Institutes of Health Research to implement and coordinate diabetes activities. The agency has not thought through what it should be trying to accomplish with the federal resources available to fight diabetes. As a result, activities remain largely uncoordinated, and their impact is unknown.

Our report on creating a historical record of Indian residential schools describes a situation where a lack of cooperation has hindered progress.

Documenting the history of Indian residential schools is an important part of the reconciliation process. At this point, with the mandate of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission running out in some 15 months, the commission and Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada have yet to agree on the work to be done. We are concerned that the lack of cooperation, delays, and a looming deadline stand in the way of creating the historical record of Indian residential schools as it was intended when this process began.

Our audit of search and rescue activities found that while the Canadian Forces and the Canadian Coast Guard have reacted adequately to search and rescue incidents, significant improvements are needed to ensure that the necessary personnel, equipment, and information system will be available in the future.

The air force and the coast guard's ability to respond to incidents has been a testament to the dedication of search and rescue crews. We are very concerned about the sustainability of search and rescue services in coming years.

In our audit of spending under the public security and anti-terrorism initiative, we found that departments and agencies submitted progress evaluations and annual reports to the Treasury Board Secretariat, but there was no monitoring of government-wide progress toward the initiative's objectives.

Between 2001 and 2009, the Treasury Board allocated about $12.9 billion to 35 departments and agencies to fund measures to enhance the security of Canadians.

We believe the government missed an opportunity to use the information it collected to generate a picture of spending and results under the public security and anti-terrorism initiative across departments.

Our audit on employment insurance overpayments identified some good practices, like using a risk-based approach and various tools to identify overpayments. However, we believe that Human Resources and Skills Development Canada is missing opportunities to recover tens of millions of dollars in overpayments each year. By improving its analysis and understanding of overpayments, Human Resources and Skills Development Canada could potentially identify more overpayments and improve on recoveries.

Our audit on advance funding to PPP Canada notes that the government is exposed to financing risks with the current arrangement of providing money to the corporation years before it is disbursed for infrastructure projects. In our view, there are approaches that would minimize the government's exposure to financing costs. The cost of financing should be considered whenever a crown corporation seeks to receive funding ahead of its disbursement needs.

As we have done for several years, this report also includes the main points from our special examination work in crown corporations.

We did not find any significant deficiencies in the corporations we examined—Farm Credit Canada, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and Old Port of Montreal Corporation. However, we have raised some concerns about the Old Port of Montreal Corporation.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my opening statement.

We will be happy to answer any questions you may have.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Very good. Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.

We'll now begin the rotation in the usual fashion. The first member to have the floor is Mr. Saxton.

You now have the floor, sir.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks to the Auditor General and to the assistant auditors general for being here today as well, and thank you for this report.

Mr. Ferguson, first of all, can you share with the committee what you consider to be the top or three most urgent chapters you've identified in this report?

3:40 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Mr. Chair, there are a number of chapters here, and I think all of them contain significant information. Certainly if I go down through the list, I would say something like the status report on security in contracting contains some serious concerns, and I would also say that the audit on search and rescue would be one, and I think also the audit on creating a historical record of Indian residential schools. I think those would probably be the three I would choose, although there are significant issues in all of the chapters.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.

Some people have been claiming that the government lost $3 billion. Is this an accurate portrayal of your report?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

What we reported in the chapter on spending on public security and anti-terrorism initiative was that there was $12.9 billion worth of budget allocations to some 35 departments and agencies. When we looked at the reports agencies made to Treasury Board Secretariat about their spending under these initiatives, it totalled $9.8 billion, so a difference of roughly $3 billion. We tried to get an explanation for why there's that difference between the budget and the actual, and we were not able to get that explanation. So what we were trying to do was understand what that difference was and where it came from. That's how I would characterize what that report included.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Thank you.

Now, can you please tell me if the reports that were done by the public security and anti-terrorism initiative, more commonly known as PSAT, were for internal government use or for external use?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

My understanding is that the reports were given to Treasury Board Secretariat as part of Treasury Board Secretariat's role in monitoring these initiatives, and we expected that they would then be used as a summary reporting tool to Treasury Board itself. So all of that is internal reporting. There was never a summary report prepared for Treasury Board, however.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

During this period of time, did individual departments report their normal planned spending and actual spending to Parliament?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Certainly there's the normal process whereby departments report their budgets and actuals across all of their activities, and that goes on every year.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Thank you.

Regarding chapter 7, federal search and rescue activities, does the Coast Guard accept the findings of the audit?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Yes, Mr. Chair, the Coast Guard agreed with all of our recommendations.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

Now, Mr. Ferguson, you have noted in your report that the Canadian Armed Forces and the Canadian Coast Guard adequately respond to air and marine search and rescue incidents, and meet established standards of readiness. Canada, of course, is a large country, and search and rescue does cross a number of different jurisdictions. You indicate concerns about the sustainability of the program and suggest that the government should systematically analyze data. Can you explain what kinds of things you'd like to see analyzed? Has this been done before, and if so, what conclusions were found?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

The type of data that we referred to was information about the individual incidents, the reaction time of the coast guard and of the Canadian Forces. So they had captured information about the reaction time to incidents but we noted that they could make better use of that information to try to determine if there were other things they could do to improve their reaction time. So certainly what we noted was that there was room for them to improve the use of information.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Andrew Saxton Conservative North Vancouver, BC

In your report you note that there's a definite need to replace search and rescue aircraft. Given the scope of the country and the fact that we will use this equipment for many years to come, how important is it that the government engage with industry to make sure that we get the right aircraft?

3:45 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Mr. Chair, I can't really answer the extent to which the government needs to engage with industry, but certainly it's important for the government to make sure that the right aircraft are acquired that can do the job of search and rescue.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

The Chair NDP David Christopherson

Sorry, your time has expired, Mr. Saxton.

We'll move along to Mr. Allen. You have the floor, sir.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Auditor General.

And thank you all for being here today.

Mr. Auditor General, perhaps I could take you to chapter 8. It's actually at page 5 under the subheading “Why it's important”. You talked about $12.9 billion being allocated, but on about the fourth line it says, “...Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat with an additional $2.75 million over five years to gather information on behalf of the Treasury Board...”.

I'm assuming that's additional moneys beyond the $12.9 billion—is that correct?—to be used to do information gathering and reporting mechanisms. Is that what that's telling me?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Yes, that was money specifically allocated for the Treasury Board Secretariat to do some of these monitoring activities.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

I would take us now to page 10 in the English version, under paragraph 8.19, which reads:

We noted that the Secretariat required departments to report this information in order to support them in fulfilling their requirement to review annual reports and evaluations, to provide summary reports to the Treasury Board, and to assess and make recommendations....

So in the sense that this money was allocated to help folks prepare reports, is that where that money should have been allocated? It's not in the sense of whether it's appropriate, but that money should have been used to develop these types of reports so that this reporting mechanism actually got done, and we might have actually seen a summary report.

I'll take you to the next piece. I know you know where it is, Mr. Ferguson. I'll point it out and make it easier to find it quickly and note that there were no summary reports done.

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

Certainly, the amount that was allocated was to support the Treasury Board Secretariat in their monitoring activities. They did collect data. They did prepare a database so they did undertake some activities, but we certainly felt that the end result of all of that should have been a summary report that could go to Treasury Board, explaining the spending and the results achieved through these initiatives.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

So I'll take you to the next page, which is 11. Actually, in the sidebar you have what's called a “Challenge function”. I'm not going to read the whole thing. Basically, it's a sense of challenging the department to tell you what happened with the money, whether they hadn't spent it or had reallocated it, pushing it around somewhere else or finding something else that needed to be done, or coming out with a different way of doing something because it was more important.

I noticed you talked about the challenge function being there, but you say in paragraph 8.23: “However, financial information on reallocations was not captured”.

Sir, in light of the fact that we got $2.3 million to capture information, we're supposed to do summary reports. We didn't do them. We're supposed to challenge reallocations and we're now saying they actually didn't do that. So have all of these bits not been done?

3:50 p.m.

Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Michael Ferguson

In terms of the challenge function and relating it to reallocations, as I understand it, what occurred was that there would have been a specific request for reallocations, and those specific requests would have undergone a challenge function. In the database I believe all they captured was whether a reallocation happened or not, and that's why we say that in terms of the reallocations in the database, they didn't capture the financial information related to each of those reallocations.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON

Also, just below that in paragraph 8.24, it is noted that “In 2010, the Treasury Board approved the Secretariat’s request to end the government-wide reporting requirements on Initiative spending”.

When you say “Initiative spending”, you actually defined that earlier in the report, where it talks about the five pieces of the initiative. Mr. Chair, I would read them into the record. The five initiative objectives are:

- keeping terrorists out of Canada;

- deterring, preventing, detecting, and prosecuting and/or removing terrorists;

- facilitating relations between Canada and the United States;

- supporting international initiatives;

- and protecting Canada’s infrastructure.

Based on that, Mr. Ferguson, is a reporting mechanism actually still there or has it totally disappeared? Or has a new one been struck yet?