Public Accounts Committee on May 2nd, 2013

[Michael Ferguson]

I'll ask Ms. Loschiuk to answer that.

[Wendy Loschiuk, Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As we point out in here, the Treasury Board Secretariat has stopped collecting data from the departments in terms of the annual reports and is in the process of putting together another framework that it hopes to have in place by I think some time in 2014. It's in their response to our recommendation.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

Just so I can crystallize it in my mind, the report is telling me that they had a framework to report a certain way, they didn't do the report in the way they were supposed to do it, so they didn't do summary reports. They don't know how.... They lost track, is they way I would put it. I believe that's kind of how the sense is, that they lost track of $3.1 billion.

They couldn't do it before in Treasury Board. Now they don't have a reporting mechanism at all and they're not about to have one until 2014. If I read this correctly, they finished the reporting mechanism in 2010. So for the past three years and the next year there is no reporting at all. So whatever money goes in there, we won't know. Is that a fair question?

[Michael Ferguson]

I think, Mr. Chair, to be able to answer specifically, I think it's really a question that the department needs to answer. Our audit only went up in this time period and at the end of this time period this method of reporting was stopped. They said they were going to do a pilot project and move into some other method. Exactly what they've done outside this timeframe, we can't really talk to.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Sorry, the time has expired. Thank you.

Over to Mr. Kramp, who now has the floor.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Certainly I welcome to the Auditor General and all the principals. It's good to see you back here again. I can assure you, on behalf of the committee, that we are thankful for the great work that you do. Certainly it is not only of short-term but long-term benefit to all Canadians. We do thank you.

I'm going to focus a little bit on search and rescue. As a matter of fact, it's of pretty significant interest to me in that, of course, I live right beside Trenton CFB. It's really a wonderful home to a lot of the SAR people. I spend a lot of time there and I have tremendous admiration for the magnificent work and dedication of our emergency personnel. When you see it firsthand, it is incredible.

I just have a few questions that I would like to ask. I understand the response times and have seen them personally, but I'm not there for all of them. Of course, in the response times of your audit, you demonstrated that our Canadian Armed Forces crews frequently surpassed the mandated response times. Can you tell us about the findings and how you would relate that?

[Michael Ferguson]

Mr. Chair, what we were specifically looking at was what's referred to as reaction time, which is the time between when the crews are tasked to the point in time they are actually able to depart on the mission. There are specific service standards, both within the Canadian Coast Guard and the Canadian Air Force. There are specific service standards there.

We noted that in the vast majority of cases, the two services were able to meet their service standards and in many cases were able to react under the amount of time they had established for those. There were some cases where the amount of time was beyond the service standard, but we noted that even in those cases it was often within a 10-minute difference.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Fine, thank you.

Given the complexities of preparing aircraft and getting up and going and putting personnel in and training them, with everything that's involved in an emergency mission, as a former emergency response individual myself, I can appreciate the tremendous work they do. When I've seen it firsthand, I'm very, very impressed.

We, of course, in this country have the second largest land mass in the world and have the longest coastline, so it's quite an enormous challenge to work with. My information has led me to believe that we responded to approximately 9,400 incidents. We tasked our military aircraft to over 1,100 cases, and we assisted over 20,000 people. Of course, doing that requires personnel—a significant number of personnel—and the Auditor General's report found that there were occasionally personnel shortages within the realm of the trained SAR personnel.

Can you assure us, though, that this has not led to a reduction or a total inability to respond? Did you find that search and rescue operations are being maintained? And further to that, were you able to ascertain whether or not National Defence has any process in place to deal with these shortages?

[Michael Ferguson]

Again, Mr. Chair, what we looked at was the reaction time, and we indicated the results in there.

I can't speak to the whole response, but I think we did notice a number of cases—I don't remember the exact number on the Coast Guard, for example—where they had to get exemptions from having personnel with specific skills on board for some of those missions.

So that was one item we identified, but again, at the operational level with both the Canadian Forces and the Coast Guard, the function seems to be working well and, again, I think that is a testament to the people who are involved.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you.

Following up on that, I understand the Auditor General did find that National Defence in consultation with Fisheries and Oceans Canada should build on just exactly what you said. They should develop an updated search and rescue mission management system, and I believe that is already under way, is it not?

[Michael Ferguson]

My understanding is that the task of replacing the information technology system has started.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Fine, thank you very much.

The SAR contribution program, the new initiatives fund that was administered by the National Search and Rescue Secretariat, was examined but I understand that opportunities for improvement were identified. I'd like to know what some of those opportunities for improvement were.

[Michael Ferguson]

Mr. Chair, we noted that roughly $8 million was being spent on different initiatives through that fund. Essentially, we identified that they need to assess what's being achieved with that money and take some lessons learned out of that to determine whether these types of programs are being effective, what types of programs are effective, and then how to leverage that and make sure the money is going towards the most effective programs.

[Daryl Kramp, Conservative, Prince Edward—Hastings, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Very good. Thank you.

Now we'll go over to Madame Blanchette-Lamothe. You have the floor, ma'am.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ferguson, you said in your opening statement that you are very concerned about the sustainability of search and rescue services in coming years. It seems to me that an expert like you chooses his words. You could have said you were concerned. However, you said you were very concerned about that.

I would simply like to allow you a little leeway to explain to me what you mean by suggesting that you are very concerned about that.

[Michael Ferguson]

Yes, Mr. Chair, there were fundamentally three areas that we were concerned about. One is the state of the equipment, particularly on the air force side, where we indicated that there are some aircraft that have been used for 45 years, and they are having to manufacture spare parts. So we have significant concerns on the equipment side for the air force.

On the personnel side, we noted that often the personnel who are actually reacting to incidents have to keep working. They don't have time to do their training and that type of thing. They don't have time to take their leave. So the burden is resting with the same people.

Then we noted that the information technology system is aging.

So all three of those together led us to be concerned about the sustainability of the program.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

I imagine the present situation is troubling. However, you say that it is the sustainability of those services that is also a concern. Does that mean that, if no serious change is made immediately, it could be worse and even more disturbing in future?

[Michael Ferguson]

Again, as I said, certainly we are concerned when there are aircraft of that age. Also we identified helicopters that can't get to northern Ontario without refuelling and don't have de-icing facilities on them.

So we are concerned about the sustainability. I can't say if this is something that is going to be problematic in one year, three years, or five years, but certainly it's a concern for the future.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Ferguson.

In paragraph 7.26 of that same chapter, you say that readiness standards were set using resources available rather than a needs analysis. I would like to hear you talk about that a little.

To your knowledge, have any changes in that situation been announced? Will needs henceforth be taken into consideration? Have you heard about any departmental change in direction in this area, for example?

[Michael Ferguson]

Certainly, that is what our finding was, that right now the standards are set based on the resources that are available.

We noted in the chapter that there is not an overall strategy related to search and rescue. If there were that overall strategy, it is in it that we would expect to find something that helps identify service standards on the basis of what the needs are, what the intended reaction times are. From that, the service standards would be established.

Really, I think what we would expect to see is the overall strategy related to search and rescue.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

In your recommendation, you advise the department to analyze its data so that it is subsequently possible to determine needs and to react on that basis. Conducting analyses is definitely an important first step, but should measures not be put in place once you have the analysis? It is not enough to determine needs; you also have to take actual policy action so that the needs are central to the direction of services.

Am I mistaken?

[Michael Ferguson]

The recommendation was that the analysis needs to happen and it needs to be based on needs, so that then, within a comprehensive strategy, the service standards and the expectations can be laid out. That analysis would be core to determining what the response times should be and what people can expect from this service.

[Lysane Blanchette-Lamothe, NDP, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

Do you agree with me that the analysis is the first important step, but that it is not enough? You also have to establish a plan, ensure that you have the resources and make the appropriate decisions.

[Michael Ferguson]

I agree absolutely; this is why, later in the chapter, we have the recommendation about putting together that overall strategy related to search and rescue.