Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 9th, 2013

[Martin Bolduc]

You're right in that right now we are in phase two of entry-exit. Essentially entry-exit enables us to share with our colleagues in the U.S. Their entry becomes our exit and vice versa. We are able to exchange information and assess those people who have left the country who might be of interest and pose a risk when they come back, but it will also enable us to confirm if people have left the country and if they were overstays.

Maybe another element I can highlight is IAPI which is interactive advance passenger information. Right now, we get information from airlines, we say “wheels up”, as soon as the aircraft takes off. With IAPI, we will be able to get the information as much as 72 hours in advance, so we will be able to start risk assessing those travellers well before the plane departs.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

There was some discussion on targeting earlier. I noticed in the Auditor General's report that you plan on relying increasingly on scenario-based targeting. What exactly is scenario-based targeting versus any other targeting? Why does the auditor think it is a good idea? Can you help me out there?

[Martin Bolduc]

We are already using scenario-based targeting. People are risk assessed on different scenarios that are essentially risk indicators. The system works with algorithms. Information provided by airlines is matched with the scenarios and algorithms we have in our system. The first level of screening is done automatically by the system.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you very much.

Vice-Chair Simms, you have the floor, sir.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you, sir.

Thank you to our guests.

Ms. Loschiuk, one of the themes I've noticed from this study and others is the lack of performance evaluation and just how difficult it is to keep abreast of what your goals are when it comes to technical information. By way of example, you point out the new interactive advance passenger information system, the entry-exit information system, and the enhanced scenario-based targeting system. You also point out that all three rely heavily on advance information.

In order to measure how well the data is coming in and how well we're using it, are we up to par? Are we able to keep up with the technology?

[Wendy Loschiuk]

Mr. Chair, it's an interesting question about whether we are able to keep up with the technology. The area we looked at was certainly to ask how much we know about how we're improving and what areas need to be strengthened. For example, if there are serious weaknesses in the information arriving, is there analysis of that?

I think just asking from our perspective, which was to look and understand what is known about the data, that's where we need a lot more work to identify where we can....

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Do you think we have a problem interpreting the data when we get it? That's one question, and I'll ask my other question in advance so I can let you answer this.

We deal a lot with international organizations, including commercial airlines. In your findings, is there a cohesive relationship between us and the international bodies about passenger names or lookouts or targets, those sorts of things?

[Wendy Loschiuk]

I really couldn't answer about our relationship with the international bodies. Certainly we were just looking at what information we get and how accurate it is.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Mr. Bolduc, who slips through the system?

You talked about 51,000 people denied entry. The people who do get entry, whether they be refugees, whether they be people by air or sea or whatever, how do they get through?

Give me some common characteristics here of who gets through our system and how they're able to do it.

[Martin Bolduc]

Who gets through that shouldn't get through?

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Exactly.

[Martin Bolduc]

As you know, we have one of the longest unprotected borders between two countries. When I say unprotected, I mean it's not fenced—

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I'm going to interrupt you. I apologize.

If more than 90% of the people are coming by air, we don't have that many airports, unlike the United States, so to me it seems that even though we have the longest border, wouldn't it be easier...? We have only so many airports across the country. Do we not have enough resources?

[Martin Bolduc]

No, it's not a matter of resources. You are right. The largest number of foreign nationals who do show up at our borders show up at airports. That's the bulk of the traffic we have there.

You have people trying to take advantage of the refugee system here, but again it's a difficult question to answer because when they show up at a few...we do in fact interact with those people. All travellers showing up at an airport have some sort of interaction with an officer.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Outside of Canada, the agencies you deal with, the commercial people you deal with, what do you think is most deficient? What do you think is the biggest problem outside of our own borders?

[Martin Bolduc]

It's an evolving trend.

It's trying to adjust to folks who are sometimes one step ahead. It's sharing information and intelligence among border management organizations to be able to be one step ahead. It's a very dynamic environment.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

In that context then, it says on page 11 of the audit in paragraph 5.27, and Ms. Loschiuk, you can weigh in on this if you want, “While all three initiatives”—and I'm talking about the technical ones I mentioned earlier—“rely heavily on advance information, none of the initiatives currently includes a plan to improve information quality”.

You go on to say some improvements, but what sticks out the most? This is a big hurdle we have to cross for us to be able to do what Mr. Bolduc mentioned.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Because of time constraints the answers have to be very brief, please.

[Wendy Loschiuk]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To answer quickly, I would point out in paragraph 5.20, where the airlines submit information and CBSA can hold them responsible or not responsible for individuals who have arrived and who are not admissible. In some cases the airlines are fined for that.

There are other cases for which the airlines are not responsible, and we've found that's a wealth of information that CBSA doesn't use in its performance measures to better understand about people who are coming into Canada for whom the airlines could not be responsible. This could be indicating all kinds of things, including fraud, and we recommend more work be done in that area.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

I'm going to have to end it there. That puts us a minute and a half over so I hope you'll understand.

Mr. Adler, you now have the floor, sir.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today.

Mr. Bolduc, can Canadians feel safe and reassured that our borders are being adequately protected right now?

[Martin Bolduc]

Yes.

[Mark Adler, Conservative, York Centre, ON]

Thank you.

When Mr. Simms was questioning you, you mentioned the undefended border. We have a long history of having the longest undefended border in the world. We've also concluded that 90% of the people who arrive here in Canada come via air.

I want to focus a little on those who arrive by land entry points, and not only the entry points but also those areas in I guess what is the soft underbelly along the 49th parallel and it's undefended and open land. What precautions are taken in those areas where there are no customs points of entry?

[Martin Bolduc]

With your permission, Mr. Chair, I'll turn it over to my colleague from the RCMP.

[C/Supt Eric Slinn]

Thank you. That's probably a better question for us as the responsibility of the RCMP is between the ports of entry. That's our mandate.

We leverage our partners at CBSA, as well as our U.S. colleagues within law enforcement. We rely upon their intelligence. That's the first stopgap.

We also rely on technology. Because that border is almost 9,000 kilometres long, we can't stretch all our manpower right across the border hand-to-hand. We have to rely on technology that we have and technology that we share with our U.S. partners to be somewhat reactive to that technology and respond to alarms or sensors or cameras along the border.

Those are the areas we use, as well as obviously a human presence in some areas that, through threat assessments, we deem are high-risk areas for people to cross.